Blossom Got Attacked In Class Doing Sit-stays Again

[BittyMooPeeb]

My poor little girl got attacked during our practice sit-stay at the club last night. We are supposed to be 6m away from our dogs during this exercise and because of this incident, she now runs behind me even if I stand right in front of her (she only got minor bruising thank goodness - and of course was terrified too)

This is the *third* time she has been jumped on by a dog ten times her weight during stays. One other time in class, and once during a test. The other two times the dog was being boisterously friendly rather than attacking, but if a 35 kg dog jumps on you when you only weight 3.5kg, whether they want to play or not doesnt make much difference.

Our test is this Sunday and I know that she wont do either of the stays now. . She's also reverted to some of the behaviour she had when I first got her (barking at any other dog she see's to ward them off before they get too close).

I'm going to ask the tester if we can do our stays without other dogs present, but I am pretty sure will get told 'no'. I'm also going to take her back to the club tomorrow for a fun time so that she doesnt fear going there. Any other suggestions?? I'm so disappointed as we have worked really hard for the past 8 weeks.

ETA: just to be clear, each incident was a different dog. This last one is known to be dog agressive and is kept on a long line, but the owner stood close to the rest of us so that the dog could get to ours before getting to the length of the line. I wasnt told that the dog was dog-agressive at the start of the class or I would have moved away myself. The owner didnt even call the dog back when he was running at mine, was very slow to pull the dog back by the long line (he'd already grabbed and released Blossom three times before she even moved), didnt tell the dog off afterwards, didnt ask if my dog was OK, didnt apologise etc etc. I think you can guess that I am

Edited August 3, 2007 by BittyMooPeeb

[FHRP]

How awful BittyMooPeeb Do you have a couple of reliable dogs that you can practice some group stays with to help Blossoms confidence? If you need some big boys, I'm happy to help No, not with Polo

Was the incident written in the incident book??

[tramissa]

I would be speaking to the instructor and asking how they will help you overcome Bloss' fears now that they have allowed this to happen. Also what action they will be taking to ensure it does not happen again in future.

With Bloss, I would maybe go back to the very basics again to rebuild her confidence. Go back to everything you did when you first got her - hopefully it will only be a short period until she's back to where she was.

I would not be attempting the test this time around.

Edited because I forgot to say the main part!! Poor Bloss and poor you for the heart attack that would have given you! Moo is twice Bloss' size, but I know how I would feel if a bigger dog was jumping all over her, even in play!

Edited August 3, 2007 by tramissa

[Staranais]

Having your dog attacked or scared by other dogs during group stays is one surefire way to make her stays really unreliable.

If you put your dog in a vulnerable position (which you are doing by asking her to sit or down in the middle of a group of other dogs), and she feels forced to disobey your command because she is scared, then she has just learned that disobeying you is safer than obeying you. That is not a good thing for her to learn. It can have serious repercussions for her obedience in stressful situations, as well as being very damaging to your relationship.

Your dog relies on you to keep her safe during group stays. If another dog breaks during a group stay and looks like it will approach your dog, then IMO you should not hesitate to immediately collect your dog or recall your dog before the other dog can reach her. Doesn't matter if the instructor doesn't like it. Keeping your dog safe and happy is much more important than passing the test.

I agree with the other posters who say you should start your stay training again from the beginning. You'll need to go back to basics and teach your dog that the stay is a safe place to be, and that you will protect her while she is holding a stay. Lots of reward, and only increase distraction levels as fast as she can cope with - under no circumstance should you put her in a situation where she is so stressed tat she breaks the stay.

If the school has a problem with that, I suggest you find another one.

[BittyMooPeeb]

Was the incident written in the incident book??

Hi FHR,

thanks for your offer - I would love to take you up on it. Now we just need to organise a time (the hard part). It would really help her I think to experience some stays that didnt result in chaos (with her often unwillingly involved)

I didnt know there was an incident book. Is it in the office? I'll get something written in on Sunday - though I dont know the name of the other dog nor the handler.

Poor girl is limping a bit still and quite tired today. I have to make myself stop fussing over her

[BittyMooPeeb]

Having your dog attacked or scared by other dogs during group stays is one surefire way to make her stays really unreliable.

If you put your dog in a vulnerable position (which you are doing by asking her to sit or down in the middle of a group of other dogs), and she feels forced to disobey your command because she is scared, then she has just learned that disobeying you is safer than obeying you. That is not a good thing for her to learn. It can have serious repercussions for her obedience in stressful situations, as well as being very damaging to your relationship.

Your dog relies on you to keep her safe during group stays. If another dog breaks during a group stay and looks like it will approach your dog, then IMO you should not hesitate to immediately collect your dog or recall your dog before the other dog can reach her. Doesn't matter if the instructor doesn't like it. Keeping your dog safe and happy is much more important than passing the test.

I agree with the other posters who say you should start your stay training again from the beginning. You'll need to go back to basics and teach your dog that the stay is a safe place to be, and that you will protect her while she is holding a stay. Lots of reward, and only increase distraction levels as fast as she can cope with - under no circumstance should you put her in a situation where she is so stressed tat she breaks the stay.

If the school has a problem with that, I suggest you find another one.

I agree wholeheartedly Amhailte. I am very upset at the affect this has had on the trust in our relationship. As you have pointed out, it is my job to leave her in a position where she is safe, and to intervene if something happens.

I left out some details for the sake of brevity - one was that I acted immediately to get this dog off Blossom but he (being faster and closer) got there before me. He broke his stay by running directly at Bloss, so was at her in a matter of seconds. Being so small I find it difficult to get her away from under another dog as there are not many bits I can reach, so I usually go for the other dog - grabbing its collar or hind legs and pulling it away as soon as it releases her (or whichever of my dogs is being attacked or just jumped on). In this case that is what happened - I grabbed the dogs collar and (as I'd seen it release her twice already) waited for another release then janked him away.

[FHRP]

Was the incident written in the incident book??

Hi FHR,

thanks for your offer - I would love to take you up on it. Now we just need to organise a time (the hard part). It would really help her I think to experience some stays that didnt result in chaos (with her often unwillingly involved)

Well we're both at the club on Thusdays by the looks of it Maybe before classes start? Although you're probably only there for the 8:30pm classes??

I didnt know there was an incident book. Is it in the office? I'll get something written in on Sunday - though I dont know the name of the other dog nor the handler.

Yes, it's in the office. Please do chase it up on the weekend. I'm sure someone could help you out with the name of the dog and handler. It's so easy for a handler to say their dog has no history of being a problem if what other people regard as 'small incidents' are never written in there. Oh, there's one for aglity in the agility shed too, although I hope you don't ever need it

Edited August 3, 2007 by FHR

[SueM]

That is always a fear with me at obedience I have a chihuahua so one bite and its pretty much over, touchwood I havent had any problems to date...

[Arya]

BMP, I really really feel for you and am very sorry indeed that this has happened to your poor little dog. I find during stays in comps sometimes people look wary of putting their smaller dogs next to my GSD in the line and you know, I can't blame them at all! (If only they knew what a relief as my dog is a cowardy custard on the stays and feels much happier sitting between two little dogs for this reason LOL). I agree with others, go back to beginning with stays. I would not put my dog in stays in the test if the trainer won't let you do them on your own. If the trainer won't let you do this then I would seriously considser looking for another club. My advice. Start at the beginning with a pocket heaped full of favourite treats. Return to the dog EVERY TEN SECONDS, rewarding her holding position, saying 'good stay'. When she is happy to do this for a minute on her own, take her out somewhere like a shopping centre with added distractions but not dogs and tie her to a post and do a formal stay with her, continuing to reward her. When you are happy that she can do her stays on her own and in an area of distraction, then back to trying around other dogs. Sit twice or three times the distance from other dogs in the line. Then go back to the start again. Reward, beginning. Treat like you haven't done all the previous work without dogs. Only sit with dogs she knows at first. Only sit with reliable dogs. Your club/dog school should be supportive of this. No aggressive dog should be allowed in stays in training on a line long enough to get to others in the stays. I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I saw this happen once at my club, where a dog got away in one class and attacked a dog in another class doing stays. It took AGES for the dog that was attacked to come good. Hope you get some ideas from this post anyway. These are the tips that have helped me.

[BittyMooPeeb]

Ok, we went to the club today and did some stays - there were no other dogs at all there, and I sat her with her back to the clubhouse so she didnt have to be worried about suprise attacks from behind.

She was happily doing everything and when I said 'stay' and started to walk away she jumped into the air in fright . I settled her again and she did a 1min before breaking - but the whole time she was looking around nervously. I made a huge fuss of her at the end though. I wish I could tell when she was going to break so that I could intervene - I'll have to do shorter times next session.

Wish us luck! (or an examiner that will let us do the stays in a ring on our own)

[Erny]

I'll have to do shorter times next session.

I'd reduce distance to the point where she is comfortable and re-build from there.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Erny

[Poodle wrangler]

That's awful. At our local club, no dogs below trialling level are allowed off leash- a long line is used, if needed. Only agility dogs off leash and they're well-behaved. Oh, and after a GSP slipped it's too big collar a few times in one session, I noticed some instructors checking all collars b4 class .

[BittyMooPeeb]

;) Hmmm Bloss had her worst ever session. She refused to even acknowledge my existence and so did not do a single exercise :) .(except the stays - go figure ;) )

I've found in the past that when she feels uncomfortable (new classes, tests etc) she reacts by ignoring me, sniffing a lot and pretending something interesting is happening elsewhere. I'm not sure yet how to get her over this.

I made a rash decision to also enter Piobaireachd in CCD, even though he has never trialled and has not done any obedience training for two years, and he came FIRST . We missed out on a qually by 2 points though ;). All my fault apparently - as the instructors so often say to me, great dog, shame about the handler . Well I didnt know that there were certain ways to do hand signals, and that when the instructor says (between stays) "relax and reward your dogs" that you shouldn't pick them up for a big kiss. (the toungy is Ok, just not off the ground ;) )

[Erny]

I've found in the past that when she feels uncomfortable (new classes, tests etc) she reacts by ignoring me, sniffing a lot and pretending something interesting is happening elsewhere. I'm not sure yet how to get her over this.

Given her recent bad experiences, it sounds like it could (at a guess) be 'displacement behaviour' - occurs when the dog is in some state of conflict.

Reduce the pressure she feels by adding distance. Make the exercises at class time, simple and easy for her to earn a 'win'.

I made a rash decision to also enter Piobaireachd in CCD, even though he has never trialled and has not done any obedience training for two years, and he came FIRST ;).

Congratulations

We missed out on a qually by 2 points though . ... Well I didnt know ... that when the instructor says (between stays) "relax and reward your dogs" that you shouldn't pick them up for a big kiss.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Erny

[Arya]

Hmmm Bloss had her worst ever session. She refused to even acknowledge my existence and so did not do a single exercise :) .(except the stays - go figure ;) )

I've found in the past that when she feels uncomfortable (new classes, tests etc) she reacts by ignoring me, sniffing a lot and pretending something interesting is happening elsewhere. I'm not sure yet how to get her over this.

I made a rash decision to also enter Piobaireachd in CCD, even though he has never trialled and has not done any obedience training for two years, and he came FIRST . We missed out on a qually by 2 points though . All my fault apparently - as the instructors so often say to me, great dog, shame about the handler . Well I didnt know that there were certain ways to do hand signals, and that when the instructor says (between stays) "relax and reward your dogs" that you shouldn't pick them up for a big kiss. (the toungy is Ok, just not off the ground )

BMP, to me also sounds like classic displacement behaviour. The dog does weird things that actually look very naughty but it is the dog's way of dealing with extreme stress they are feeling. So air scenting, sniffing the ground, looking away from you when every other bl$(#y time they can't take their eyes off you. Forgetting their name. Forgetting commands. Sudden interest in dog in next ring. Sudden urge to get to friends they know are *somewhere* on the ground. Whatever you do don't mistake this for naughtiness or let ANYONE ever convince you she's being naughty, lazy etc. It's extreme stress. I am experiencing the exact same thing with my GSD bitch in the ring at trials at the moment. It's awful to deal with. Best I can suggest is to start right back at the beginning with a lot of stuff. You won't take long to reestablish where you were up to but if you don't go back to square one it will not work in many instances. Sounds like you didn't do enough with the stays from what you wrote. Don't just sit her on her own. Sit her on her own with you right in front of her, no distance at all. Forget about passes, they will come when your dog is happy and then they will proabably RAIN down on you LOL

Listen, if it's any consolation I had a terrific day with my girl at a trial on Sat and then on the Sun everything went right out the window and back to square one. Couldn't even remember her name. I'm trialling a dog in Obedience in Novice that is trained up to most UD excercises. I haven't got a pass so I'm now taking the option of returning to CCD so I can work on lead to give her security, as the lead disconnection makes her worse. We all have BAD days with our darling dogs. Good luck! You'll get there

[reddog21]

OMG Bitty, poor Blossom. You're getting some good advice here. I hope you can work through the problems quickly and get on with the training. Give her a big cuddle from her driver ;)

[BittyMooPeeb]

BMP, to me also sounds like classic displacement behaviour. The dog does weird things that actually look very naughty but it is the dog's way of dealing with extreme stress they are feeling. So air scenting, sniffing the ground, looking away from you when every other bl$(#y time they can't take their eyes off you. Forgetting their name. Forgetting commands. Sudden interest in dog in next ring. Sudden urge to get to friends they know are *somewhere* on the ground. Whatever you do don't mistake this for naughtiness or let ANYONE ever convince you she's being naughty, lazy etc.

Thats EXACTLY what she was doing! Every single thing you mentioned - even the sudden urge to get to friends they know are *somewhere* on the ground. BF and I were trying to work out last night what she could have been trying to get to , as there were no people or dogs she knew there, but from what you and other posters have said it is actually 'displacement behaviour'.

She does all the exercises well when we are on our own, and a bit less well when we are in class, and a lot less well in a trial. Do you have a suggestion for how I can make her feel more comfortable when there are other people and dogs around? I'd thought of going to the next competition day and just working with her on our own so she gets used to the environment, but this only happens every 8 weeks.

Thinking about it now there were other things on the day that were new to her. She was crated while I was with my other dog, and she didnt like this. We also were there for 2.5 hrs waiting to compete, and she is not used to waiting around at the club. I tried to keep things positive - we played games throughout the morning, I bought a toasted ham and cheese sandwich so that she could have a bit (our last instructor gave the dogs this treat during class, and she just loves it), and she seemed fine. Until we got into the ring and I asked her to do something that is. To try and make her feel better I played games with her in the ring which she happily particpated in, but as soon as I stopped the game and said 'heel' in my best happy voice, she went into "displacement' mode again ;)

[BittyMooPeeb]

OMG Bitty, poor Blossom. You're getting some good advice here. I hope you can work through the problems quickly and get on with the training. Give her a big cuddle from her driver

;) Who would have thought that the tiny sweet little dog who slept curled up into a ball on your front seat during the drive south could turn out to be such a naughty girl who delights in embarassing her Mum in public (Joke!)

Cuddle from Bloss is on it's way back to you too.

[Staranais]

She does all the exercises well when we are on our own, and a bit less well when we are in class, and a lot less well in a trial. Do you have a suggestion for how I can make her feel more comfortable when there are other people and dogs around? I'd thought of going to the next competition day and just working with her on our own so she gets used to the environment, but this only happens every 8 weeks... To try and make her feel better I played games with her in the ring which she happily particpated in, but as soon as I stopped the game and said 'heel' in my best happy voice, she went into "displacement' mode again

Sounds to me like she's just scared, BittyMooPeeb. And there's no cure for that except earning her trust again, and that will take patience, patience, patience and lots of positive reinforcement. Take her right back to the beginning like the other posters suggested, and only ask her for stays that she can comfortably do. Don't ask her to do anything that makes her upset or stressed (displacement behaviour = a sign of stress). Reward the heck out of her for succeeding. Re-teach her that the stay is a safe & rewarding place to be.

JMO but if I were you, I wouldn't count on competing soon. I think you have a lot of groundwork to redo before you're ready to have your dog staying in a lineup with strange dogs.

When you do finally get round to working near other dogs and other people again, go slow, and whatever you do always protect your dog. When I said before "get your dog if it looks like another dog will approach it", I didn't mean you have to wait until the other dog actually approaches your dog before you get your dog. As soon as another dog gets up, even if it's down the other end of your line, you can collect or recall your dog (I take it you have a fast, solid recall?) Mistakenly recalling your dog from a stay when you didn't really need to is a way better mistake to make than letting your dog get scared again because you were too slow to recall her.

I'm in a slightly different situation to you (my dog is dog aggressive, not fearful) but I still can't have any dogs coming right up to him when he's on a stay. If we're doing a stay and another dog gets up, even if it's at the other end of the line, I recall my boy out of there so fast his head nearly spins. :p Took me a few attempts to find a school that was OK with that, but it was worth looking. No obedience title is worth making your dog more scared or more aggressive.

I hope it works out for you.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Amhailte

[Arya]

BMP, it sounds like youre on the right track with the playing in the ring thing. here is some brilliant advice that was given to me by someone who has earnt 200points in the ring in dog trials and won all sorts and who I have the utmost respect for. Never confuse this behavior with naughtiness or let anyone tell you it is naughtiness. Play in the ring. Get others to walk thru the ring while you are working. Get even others with dogs on leads to walk through the ring, cross in front of you, get in your way. Then when you are playing in the ring chuck in the odd 'heel' and even if she is unhappy just don't make a big deal of it, just go back to playing. you will gradually work her thru it with time, with luck. GOOD LUCK!!! This advice is slowly working for me. It can take a long time but it will work in the end. It is a nice way to make your dog happy and get your dog to get used to others around in the ring and see the ring as a good happy place where good stuff takes place. Poor little dog, I'm really sorry that happened to her and to you!!!