Sensitive Dogs?

[leopuppy04]

Just wondering - would people say that there are 'sensitive' dogs out there? Sensitive in the sense of training - not in terms of unsure of the external environment around them....

For example - you have a dog that is 'unsure' and not willing to make an error. They gain confidence the further along they go in training, but if unsure they would rather 'not do it' than get it wrong....

Is this dog merely a 'sensitive' temperament or is it not 'guided' properly by the handler? In your mind, if you had a dog like this, would you say a 'correction' or 'force' to get the dog to do it would help it, hinder it, or dependant on situation??

What of another dog that is confident in what it does until the 'handler' becomes confused - the dog then slows down/ lacks 'confidence' because of the vibes it picks up from the handler??

I'm talking about a dog that is completely confident in all other aspects of training and lifestyle.

Would you say these so called 'sensitive' dogs are the result of lack of leadership or is it just the dogs temperament?

Obviously a clear definition of right and wrong can also help the dog gain confidence - but in your mind what would equate to a clear definition??? Would you also say this is dependant on the dog?

Of course I know that this is only your opinion, but I am really curious to hear what you have to say .

Hope this makes sense!

[JulesP]

Brock is sensitive. He is sensitive about everything though, not just training. He is in general a big sook.

If he thinks he has got something wrong he does fall to pieces. For instance the other day he missed a stand, he knew he had missed it and although he got no correction (i walked forward and asked again) he was upset. His tail was down, his ears drooped, he was actually crouching. A 'correction' as in a jerk of the chain would have had him on the ground sobbing. I usually just talk to him and wait until he looks ok with the world or do something else. He is not trying it on or being naughty.

I have a fair bit of trouble in class if someone else loudly tells their dog off.

[Cosmolo]

I am a little confused by what you mean LP Are you talking sensitivity to training as in the responsiveness of a dog? Or sensitive as in weak nerves where the dog crumbles under any kind of pressure? Are you suggesting that giving a correction to either of the above dogs is counter productive? What about the dog like Jules P's dog who crumbles even in the absence of a correction?

[leopuppy04]

hmm...

I mean both sides.... whether the correction is present or not. I don't really mean as to whether a correction is counter productive as I do feel that it *is* situation dependent - some dogs do gain confidence in a stressful situation from you taking the lead.

I mean a dog that does 'crumble' a bit when pressure is put on it, either by confusion (handler or dog) or under any type of pressure....

I just want peoples opinions as to whether they think it is simply the dog's temperament or the handler.....

I don't mean weak nerves in the sense of external stimuli, but strictly a training sense....

sorry - I don't know how else to explain what i'm thinking ....

*tries to think of example*

ETA - ok here is the best example I can think of (albeit it is probably not very good!)....

You are doing distance work with your dog..... the dog goes down s-l-o-w-l-y into the drop..... it is not being disobedient or testing you - you can see that it is 'unsure' of what exactly you are asking from it..... alternatively - you ask the dog to 'drop' and it won't... or initially make the movement to and decide against it - pure confusion written across it's face.... no steps have been missed in training...... is it because the handler hasn't clearly defined what is right/ wrong..... or is the dog just merely sensitive? Of course - the more you do, the more confidence the dog builds up....

Another example - same scenario although this time the dog knows the behaviour...... you ask drop and it goes down quick, but not good enough to earn the reward..... you repeat.... still not good enough - the dog then on the 3rd time goes down slower as it is unsure now whether the behaviour is right....

OK - these are REALLY bad examples....

I'll try an agility one.....

you are doing an obstacle discrimination. You ask the dog to go through the tunnel (tunnel and A frame set up next to each other) and the dog doesn't do either. It knows each obstacle but chooses to 'not do either' so that it won't get the negative of getting it wrong??

Have I confused you more or does it make more sense???

I've confused myself now!!

Edited August 3, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

A dog can display weak nerves in a training sense though- IMO, there doesn't always have to be an external stimulus. If you wanted to get technical, the external stimulus is you/ the handler and the training anyway.

I think that if the dog has been training for a reasonable period of time and has learnt how to learn, crumbling under pressure is, more often than not, handler error. 2 of my dogs would be what you might call sensitive- but they don't crumble under pressure in training unless there is a training error on my part.

As for the question in your first post- what equates a clear definition? That absoultely depends on the dog- what makes it clear to one dog, will not necesarily do so for another.

I am still a little confused about what you're asking for though! Maybe its just me

[leopuppy04]

I think that if the dog has been training for a reasonable period of time and has learnt how to learn, crumbling under pressure is, more often than not, handler error. 2 of my dogs would be what you might call sensitive- but they don't crumble under pressure in training unless there is a training error on my part.

OK - I have edited my above post and utterly confused myself..... what was I asking again?!?!

I think you understand what I mean though. Ok - in response to the above quote - what do you mean by handler error - the handler giving the wrong signal or not being 'assertive' enough to give the dog confidence in doing what it should do????

[Cosmolo]

Lp- you do make me laugh

Let me take the first example you gave with the dog not dropping or dropping slowly. I think i know the look you are referring to and GENERALLY speaking the first time that occurred, i would guide or lure instead of correct, and reward. I might do this a number of times if the dog is in teaching phase. At some point, when i believe that the dog has an idea of what i want but is waiting for the guide/ lure- i might introduce some kind of consequence. When the dog does the exercise by themselves without assistance no matter how slow- i usually jackpot and repeat immediately to build confidence and speed.

The other examples you have given i think are all handler error rather than sensitivity- the second example, it would seem to me that for a known behaviour to extinguish that quickly, the dog hasn't been doing it for long enough and received enough rewards to then not receive some kind of reward for the behaviour and expect to have it maintained. OR, the differences in the rewards are not significant enough and the successive approximation process is unclear or misunderstood by the dog. And the third example if the dog was that confused, the exercise should be easier to start (where they do comply)and gradually made harder.

I don't think the above dogs are necesarily sensitive though- just confused about an exercise and perhaps going from teaching to training phase. Sensitivity would occur IMO if i did not follow through with the dog and left the dog confused. The next time i go to get the dog for training i would expect less effort and more confusion and hesitation as thats how that exercise finished last session. Thats not sensitivity- thats bad training.

Handler error could be anything from giving a poor signal to not making consequences clear enough- regardless of whether you train with compulsion or not.

This thread has the potential to be a jumbled mess of confused posts... !!!

[Rom]

hmm...

You are doing distance work with your dog..... the dog goes down s-l-o-w-l-y into the drop..... it is not being disobedient or testing you - you can see that it is 'unsure' of what exactly you are asking from it..... alternatively - you ask the dog to 'drop' and it won't... or initially make the movement to and decide against it - pure confusion written across it's face.... no steps have been missed in training...... is it because the handler hasn't clearly defined what is right/ wrong..... or is the dog just merely sensitive? Of course - the more you do, the more confidence the dog builds up....

Another example - same scenario although this time the dog knows the behaviour...... you ask drop and it goes down quick, but not good enough to earn the reward..... you repeat.... still not good enough - the dog then on the 3rd time goes down slower as it is unsure now whether the behaviour is right....

OK - these are REALLY bad examples....

I'm trying to get on the same page....I think I might know what you're getting at. But in the above examples is it an improvement in speed or an increase in distance that is a new criteria to the dog? Because if it is, I don't think its so much sensitivity as it is confusion....same exercise but new criteria for earning the reward...the dog slows down while they figure out what you want.

Am I on the same page?

[leopuppy04]

This thread has the potential to be a jumbled mess of confused posts... !!!

;) doesn't help when the OP forgets what point she was trying to get at

Ok - so what of the type of dog that tends to 'tiptoe' around the exercises when the handler is confused.... is it sensitive to how the handler is feeling or is it just something that all dogs do???

ROM:

I *think* you are on the right track.... and I *think* I have completely lost the plot

Ok - so for my examples, the consensus tends to be 'confusion'..... so.... what would define a truly sensitive dog??

Edited August 3, 2007 by leopuppy04

[laffi]

I am not sure what you mean but will answer anyway

My dogs are unsure when they don't know what I mean. For example a very slow drop from a distance. The way I see it is that dogs don't generalize very well and for them it's almost like a new command when you are in a different location and so you have almost start from the beginning sometimes. So they try to take their best guess but are slow because are unsure what I mean.

[Staranais]

I think there are sensitive dogs out there.

My old flatmate had a dog that I would class as very sensitive. If you corrected her (even just very mildly verbally) she would immediately try to appease you with extremely submissive behaviour. When corrected she'd immediately forget what it was she was doing, and throw herself flat on her belly in order to make amends. E.g if you asked for a sit and got a down, and gently said "uh", as soon as she worked out you were unhappy then she'd immediately grovel to appease.

She hadn't ever been hurt or abused or beaten, BTW. Didn't get much in the way of formal training or exercise, but was a well loved dog.

Perhaps if she had better "leadership" or more training during her puppyhood, her personality would be different? Or I guess it could just have been superstitious behaviour (perhaps when she was told off in the past she groveled and the scolding stopped, so she figured that whenever a human was upset it had nothing to do with her behaviour, it was just that they wanted her to grovel?) I guess we'll never know.

[JulesP]

Brock is the second border I have owned that is 'sensitive'. It certainly teaches you to control your temper. Even if I am in class and get shitty with the instructor then he turns to water. He was outside playing this morning and smacked his pot into the window, I looked up quickly and he was all squirmy and apologetic and was actually licking the glass. I have never told him off for knocking the window but just me looking up quickly and sharply had him grovelling. He is also very submissive to all other dogs.

[Janba]

I have a border collie who is sensative to train, but maybe not in the manner you mean. He is strictly "do not touch me while I am learning". He is fine with an exercise we haven't fully proofed until you touch him, then he turns to jelly. This means that in training I can food reward and verbal reward but cannot pat or physically correct a position.

It made trying to teach weaving with guards interesting. He had picked up at home what weaving was, but at training where they use the guards was a problem as the guards touched him. He started to go through the weavers in the correct order, but jumping over the both of the guards so he didn't have to run between them.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Janba

[Rom]

This thread has the potential to be a jumbled mess of confused posts... !!!

:D :D ;) doesn't help when the OP forgets what point she was trying to get at

Ok - so what of the type of dog that tends to 'tiptoe' around the exercises when the handler is confused.... is it sensitive to how the handler is feeling or is it just something that all dogs do???

ROM:

I *think* you are on the right track.... and I *think* I have completely lost the plot

Ok - so for my examples, the consensus tends to be 'confusion'..... so.... what would define a truly sensitive dog??

Sensitive: 1. open to, acutely affected by, external impressions

2. easily affected or altered

3. easily upset by criticism

4. responsive to slight changes

(Oxford pocket reference)

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Short answer: a sensitive temperament is a fantastic opportunity to improve your handling accuracy.

[Cosmolo]

Here are some further questions to ponder..

What is sensitivity in a dog? Does it mean that:

they have weak nerves?

they didn't receive good socialisation to training during their critical period?

someone at some point has sensitised them to training by accident? (it would therefore not necesarily be the natural temperament of the dog)

they don't have strong drives so they are too easy to 'knock out' of drive and appear sensitive?

A few posters talk about appeasement behaviour occurring in their 'sensitive' dogs. Is this the dog themselves or is this what they have learned will work to not get them into trouble? Are dogs naturally sensitive? Or do we teach them that certain behaviours (that we think are sensitive) work to get what they want? Sensitivity to a correction varies from dog to dog but can also be taught to any dog. The dog who is strctly hands off for training- is that sensitive or a lack of manual handling/ socialisation to handling and touch?

I think sensitive is a human description that is too broad. Weak nerves would describe many dogs who we might think are sensitive.

[Tonymc]

I agree with Cosmolo here.So called sensitive Dogs to me are weak nerved,low threshold dogs and ones I steer clear of. Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I agree with Cosmolo here.So called sensitive Dogs to me are weak nerved,low threshold dogs and ones I steer clear of.

Fair enough as a personal choice, but what about dogs where the sensitivity is a breed characteristic of some kind? The dogs that have some variation on "wary with strangers" or "reserved" in their standards?

Dogs have different thresholds after all, and some of that is perfectly resonable. My salukis have remarkable pain tolerance for example, the vets often comment that other dogs would be screaming their heads off while mine sit quietly while the vet fishes a grass seed out. However, they do have a low tolerance for being manhandled by strangers who don't know how to approach sighthounds - some observers have interpreted that as bad temperament or over-sensitivity.

I get a bit frustrated by those observations. A saluki that shies away is different to my mind than a labrador that shies away. I think the key is to observe dogs doing what they were bred to do. If they are confident and assured in that environment they might have great breed temperament but that doesn't mean they'll be easy to train in an obedience class.

One of the reasons I like our dogs is that they force us to lift our game when it comes to obedience training.

[Tonymc]

Anita I see sensitive dogs and Dogs that are wary or aloof as two totally different aspects altogether.Many of our Dogs at Home are aloof and wary of strangers.Do they have weak nerves and show so called sensitivity?no way!!!A Dog who is used for guarding say and who is good at it may well be aloof and watchful of Strangers but those Dogs I find are usually strong nerved and high threshold.

For example my American Bulldog is watchful of Strangers but very high threshold and strong nerved.again to me Breed Characteristics are one thing and Weak nerved or sensitive Dogs a completely separate matter. Tony

[Lablover]

I like sensitive dogs. Soft on the other hand - can be on someone else's couch.