Retrieving Issues

[Tapferhund]

ps,

I have noticed over the years that those who know nothing else and can't see beyond using a clicker generally come unstuck somewhere in their training.......they have no repertoire of methods or ideas to fall back on.

Every dog is different and some are natural retrievers with varying degrees of prey drive while others can have no interest at all which can make training retrieve (RELIABLY) with a clicker quite difficult. IMO what makes a GOOD trainer is someone who has many ideas(methods) to use on these dogs.

[wheres my rock]

good to see things never change on dol

jules pm me im happy to help you if your willing to come down my way kcc is always a good option

[Dogs4Fun]

Hey there Jules,

I feel your frustration.

It took me 6 months to teach my totally non-interested, incredibly soft, Cairn to retrieve a dumbell (DB). This was a dog that never did (and still doesn't) put anything in is mouth that isn't food or a live small furry animal (only temporarily live in the latter case).

We just kept going with clicker in the most TINY steps. We started with not actively walking away from the DB, worked up to little eye flicks toward the DB etc etc.

Once he could stand to look at it I taught the release first, as this was most rewarding to him initially.

Getting him to hold with mouth pressure on the DB rather than just accept it in his mouth was a really important step. When we tried to move on to ground pickups etc without him volunteering pressure on the DB, things just stopped as they have for you. Getting this pressure took the most time, and enormous patience and very careful watching. I spend many hours lying on the ground on the oval watching his jaw muscles! Must have looked deranged. But hey, I train dogs, I'm used to that!

However, once he would put pressure on it, we could then start to play games where I could touch the DB and eventually tug on the DB while it was in his mouth, and he didn't release until asked.

Then suddenly the DB had value to him. The rest of the retrieve: getting a ground pickup, leaving him holding the DB and doing short retrieves etc fell into place quiet quickly.

From memory, he never failed a retrieve in the ring, and eventually learnt how to do scent descrimination for UD without passing out

For what it is worth, I didn't ever succeed in getting a play retrieve with him. He still will just stare at you if you throw a toy around. He just knows his job when he is training or trialling. It was never be his favourite exercise, but he was accurate and reliable.

[dogdude]

Tapferhund

I made no reference to your post whatsoever, or your method. If anything, I lent some support!

What was that about a repertoire of methods to fall back on...???? I am happy for you to not want to use the method. I am not ashamed to use it, and neither are the majority of people overseas still using it!

Pehaps you should actually read my original post before you have a hissy.

[Cosmolo]

There are many different ways to teach a retrieve. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'. The best one for a dog is one that minimises confusion and resitance in the dog- whether that be done with a clicker or some kind of gentle physical pressure. if i was to do a forced retrieve, the biggest difference would be that i wouldn't be waiting for offering of the behaviour, rather guiding the dog into doing it BUT still marking and rewarding the desired response.

While i am certainly not suggesting this for Brock (having not seen him) i saw a wonderful way to teach a hold/ retrieve using an e collar- it is one more thing in my tool box that i would use if appropriate to the dog and situation.

[ness]

Tapferhund I had to use a clicker - Ness show zero interest in retrieving anything. Now she will happily retrieve whatever I want and I have without question very good realibility on my retrieves - hmm so it can't be done hey .

[Staranais]

Every dog is different and some are natural retrievers with varying degrees of prey drive while others can have no interest at all which can make training retrieve (RELIABLY) with a clicker quite difficult. IMO what makes a GOOD trainer is someone who has many ideas(methods) to use on these dogs.

I think clicker training can be one of the best ways to teach a dog without prey drive to retrieve, as long as the dog is food driven. You can teach the dog to retrieve the boring dumbell in exchange for exciting food.

And clicker was certainly useful when teaching my very prey driven stafford to retrieve, since it let me precisely pinpoint the bits of the retrieve I did and didn't like (e.g, communicating to him that while I did like the holding, I didn't like the mouthing).

I agree with you that people that "only" clicker train often run into problems at some point when they meet a dog that doesn't respond. But I think the same can be said of people who are close-minded about any method (people who won't use food, or who only use food not toys, or people who refuse to correct, or refuse to use certain types of tools, etc). And certainly it's true that methods can often be successfully combined (e.g, gently holding a dumbbell in a dog's mouth and clicking as a first step in a "clicker" retrieve) so it's not as if it's all or nothing.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Amhailte

[JulesP]

I think he might be 'shy'! Was sitting in the kitchen with him tonight not having much success when the lights went out! Suddenly there was lots of chomping of the dumbell! I couldn't see of course, could just hear him! Dunno what he was doing but he got rewarded!

[archie]

l agree with Dogdude,

the force retrieve is very reliable but Not recommended for the inexperienced though there is plenty to get wrong, and you do not have to use the correction ever again.

My 15mth pup is retrieving ball,dumbell as he is ball crazy but eventually may have to teach force just to make him reliable.