JulesP Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Has anyone had a dog that they haven't been able to teach to do a formal retrieve?? Brock will still not hold the dumbell in his mouth (or take any object from me). And I am not getting anywhere with trying to get him excited about play retrieve. I have one toy that he will chase after and pick up, but he will only do it maybe twice before he just looks at me. Throwing 2 toys achieved nothing. I am getting rather depressed about it as I need to do a retrieve to pass the current class I am in. And I need to pass this class to get into the trial class! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Have you tried teaching retrieving with a clicker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 Yes. Have been using the Shirley Retrieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Yes. Have been using the Shirley Retrieve. I have been having the same issue with maiya, only maybe i am little more along. Maiya will retrieve and run after most anything i want, but to try and get her to take something and hold it, without there being a tug of war or game involved, is also proving a little different. I am having slow success though, i did post something today about it under 'book with some of the dumest stuff' but the success i had after taht post was this, i am usinga beer cooler for my object of choice. to start wth maiya has a fur that she loves to play with on her own or a game of tug, i just got her excited for about 10 or 15 seconds with that. then i held the beer cooler in my hand. when she came to it and even just sniffed i mark and treat. maiya has an 'ok' command which allows her to do things, so have been using that to allow her to get near the beer cooler. once she was doing that solidly, i moved the cooler around a litltle, so she would try and bite it. as soon as any part of the cooler when in her mouth, i marked and treated, making a really big deal of that. after about 10 goes, she cottoned on to having to mouth the cooler. then i laid it on the floor, gave the ok command. at first she just touched it with her nose then sat on it. but after about 3 tries of me moving it and allowing her to go, she tried to bite it, i made a huge deal of this, then the training session finished. but so far that seems to be working. i am assuming now that when she mouths the cooler more, i will be able to delay the mark and hopefully make her think she has to pick it up, then delay more and have her hold it, finally add in the que 'take it' and see how we go. hope that helps... ps. wish i had done second training session before last post ;0 bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Try teaching the (nice) forced method of 'Fetch-Hold-Give" and you will find your dog will be 100% more reliable than any dog taught by clicker or shirley whatever's method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 (edited) Well tapferhund I refute that your dog will be 100% more reliable than any dog taught using a clicker than using a forced retrieve. I had retrieving issues for a long time (due to the fact I didn't raise my criteria fast enough) having said that though her retrieves in trials have been brilliant and they were all taught using positives with no force. Very good scores and if fact she got a perfect score for her retrieve on the flat at the last trial. Oh and just for the record when we then went to do scent discrimination for UD where the dog has to retrieve metal she had zero problems when I did a "quick and dirty" version of a shaped retrieve. I also had her retrieving staplers when I accidently stuck those out as supposedly unretrievable objects in my scent work. I can shape her to retrieve anything physically possible now in a matter of 30 seconds or so. She will fetch an ackward brass key for me through her dog door even all taught in the course of 1 evening. So positive training does work and can certainly result in a reliable retrieve which is far superior to the forced retrieve cos the dog actually wants to retrieve it. . Sorry Jules P didn't really answer your question I promise to get back to you tomorrow when I have more time and aren't half asleep but couldn't let Tapferhund's comment go uncommented upon. Edited August 2, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Surely there would be hundreds of people on Melissa Alexander's group Clickersolutions that have used Shirley Chong's method that can help you guys with your hiccups? Am I right ness? Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Yep no doubt your right Mel sure to be lot of people who have trained it and can help out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I used forced retreive with ear pinch. I have a very soft dog so it only took one week to get a reliable formal retrieve. Not recommended for the inexperienced though, there is plenty to get wrong. One point that I would like to make about this method is that once the exercise is understood, you basically do not have to use the correction ever again. I then switch to food drive to gain speed and enthusiasm with no negative effects from using the ear pinch. The dog does need a sound temperment though, but the softer the better. Works on all breeds. Oscar loves the formal retrieve, but he still won't chase a ball in fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 PM Kelpie-i. She got Pete the Pug (remember the TV show - "Celebrity Trainers" I think it was called) to do a retrieve. Pete initially had sub-zero interest in picking up anything in his mouth, let alone hold it and bring it back, yet she did achieve this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 OK Ness - what's the secret? Leo loves barking and nosing the metal but won't pick it up as it is 'too cold' Honestly - don't dangle the bait without sharing the 'know how'.... otherwise i'll stalk you till I get it out of you ;) I made the same problem as Ness - not raising the bar 'fast enough' with Leo's retrieve, but he is working well now! Always comes down to the saying 'great dog, shame about the handler' - luckily I for once learned from my mistakes and Kinta's retrieve is running a lot smoother than Leo's was ;) Jules - have you tried a play retrieve? Doe he retrieve *anything*? I found a play retrieve really helped Leo and then shaped the 'present' as a seperate exercise? Can you tell us what you already *have* done and perhaps we can offer further suggestions? Where did you get up to on Shirley Chong's retrieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 No Leopuppy he will not retrieve anything. The only game he really loves is chasing the torch! He also likes playing with a big plastic pot, but he mainly bats that around with his paws. He can't object to having stuff in his mouth too much though as he does like stealing my fire kindling! With the Shirley method I got to putting the dumbell on the ground. He will nose it and lick it but will not move it. I have been holding it and he will take it in his mouth but will not hold it. He will move to take it in his mouth too. If I put a finger under his chin he looks very upset. I have tried to get him to hold over objects with no success. As a seperate exercise I have been trying to encourage him to chase objects, half the time he doesn't even run after them let alone bring them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 He can't object to having stuff in his mouth too much though as he does like stealing my fire kindling! If he picks up kindling, then can you set him up to capture that with a clicker and some really really great food treats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 He doesn't do it when I am around. I just find the kindling all over the garden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 No Leopuppy he will not retrieve anything. The only game he really loves is chasing the torch! He also likes playing with a big plastic pot, but he mainly bats that around with his paws. He can't object to having stuff in his mouth too much though as he does like stealing my fire kindling!With the Shirley method I got to putting the dumbell on the ground. He will nose it and lick it but will not move it. I have been holding it and he will take it in his mouth but will not hold it. He will move to take it in his mouth too. If I put a finger under his chin he looks very upset. I have tried to get him to hold over objects with no success. As a seperate exercise I have been trying to encourage him to chase objects, half the time he doesn't even run after them let alone bring them back. *ponders*... hmm... he likes to make it hard doesn't he! What do you mean he 'looks' upset when you put your finger there? Does he then try and 'avoid' the d/b next time round? Does the reward he gets for 'holding' the d/b (with your help) far outweigh the slight negative of you placing pressure on his mouth?? How are you trying to encourage him to chase objects? Kinta was a 'toy, what toy?' type dog and now she is an absolute nutter for them?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 His ears go down, he tries to wriggle away. A positive trainer also noticed his dislike of being told to hold it. To encourage the play I jump around like a lunatic, teasing him with the object, talking in a very excited voice and then I throw it. He doesn't get to play with the things unless I am around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 To encourage the play I jump around like a lunatic, teasing him with the object, talking in a very excited voice and then I throw it. He doesn't get to play with the things unless I am around. Let me guess - you just get blank stares from him saying "what on earth are YOU on?!?!" Leo can do that to me too.... particularly if I have a tug . if you drag it on the ground will he get excited about it? Will he run out to get food? Is he a foodie? What is his ultimate, best thing to play with aside from you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Ness and Dogdude, what?....you deliberately over looked the word "nice" in my post? And I can tell you my dogs are just as happyand reliable ,if not more so than your dogs AND they were trained just as "positively" as yours.........so don't assume otherwise, especially as you have no idea as to what I was talking about when I used the word 'force'......you assuming pinched ear methods which I DO NOT agree with and would NEVER use under any circumstances ......unlike yourself dogdude. Perhaps if you hadn't JUMPED so quickly to conclusions .......and instead asked what I meant in the ""nice"" forced method that I use..........you might have learned something other than the single visioned shirley whatsherfaces method. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 Yes that is pretty much the response I get. He has a half hearted go at playing to make me happy. He will run (well walk) out to a target to get food, He isn't thrilled about this. He doesn't like going away from me. He didn't even want to leave me to chase the sheepies. The thing that produces the border collie nuttiness is probably chasing the torch! i.e. at night, turning the torch on and he goes crazy chasing it around the garden! As you know Leo he is pretty laid back! Brock doing what he does best: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I would be careful with the chasing the torch thing - some become obsessed and start chasing shadows and it can become a problem. Zoe will do it too - and light reflections off watches - we now try to make sure she doesn't do it. It also makes walking in the dark using a torch very difficult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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