Hip/elbow Dysplasia Scores?

[Sticks1977]

We have recently brought home a chocolate labrador (Fraser) and so far he has been a breath of fresh air through the place at home and me and my partner both love spending heaps of time with him. I was looking over the papers of his mother and father last night and reading the hip/elbow scores and was not too sure what to make of most of it...

The mother has scores of Hips (2:3 = 5) and Elbows (2:2 = 4), and the father has scores of Hips (7:0 = 7) and Elbows (1:2 = 3) are these rather OK scores for the hip and elbow scoring system? I am currently at work so I don't have the documents nearby so I am only going from memory. There were also scores relating to the International Hip Grade (A to E) but I would have to look again at the documents to make sure.

Also is it worth finding out the hip/elbow scores of our puppy? We are not sure whether we would want to breed him in the future, more than likely we will not as we mainly have Fraser as part of the family and a companion to have around home. If we were to get him hip/elbow scored, at what age should this be undertaken?

Regards,

Shaun (Sticks1977), Gaylene and Fraser

[Mystiqview]

Sticks,

Do not know much about Labs. But on the scores side.. I am a little concerned of the 7:0.. only from an unevenness point of view. I would like to have seen them more even.. even if they were 5:2... I know lab scores are higher than my breed of border collies.. and given that.. and please lab breeders feel free to disagree.. i would not even mind seeing a score of 7:7 as preferable to 7:0.. I know that probably does not make a lot of sense.

Personally I would like to have a difference between left and right of no more than half the highest score..

I would not hip/elbow score him before 18 months. But before he is used at stud, I would be asking myself what he would contribute to the gene pool, and whether he is a good example of his breed.

Just because he is pedigree and you have him (I hope) on main register (limit register means that you agree to desex him and he cannot be conformation shown) does not automatically make him eligible to be bred from.

Again on elbows. I believe labs have higher scores than borders. But I would not breed from a dog who has elbow scores of 2:2. The highest score possible on each side is 3.. so the parents of your dogs have reasonably high elbow scores. (again I do not know if this is normal for labs)

International scores A-E are similar to our numbers.. A is excellent and E is poor.

[Cavandra]

The GRADE is more important than the actual score. The more even the score on each hip or elbow the better..........

I would have thought the elbows were too much to have bred these 2 together.......I know people in other similar breeds may have bred the 2:2. but it would have gone to a 0:0..............The uneven hips score isnt great either, I would rather see a dog with an above average score that is even than one that is so uneven & below the average.........There are Breeders that only look at the total when in fact the Grade is what means more........ JMHO

[KJ]

The mother has scores of Hips (2:3 = 5) and Elbows (2:2 = 4), and the father has scores of Hips (7:0 = 7) and Elbows (1:2 = 3) are these rather OK scores for the hip and elbow scoring system?

No those scores are not ok, based on the elbow scores alone neither of the parents should have been used for breeding let alone bred together!

[Guest magnum]

Holy cow, if my breed had elbows score like that I would not be breeding from them let alone together..It maybe ok in your breed best to maybe check with the breed club.

[Miranda]

The mother has scores of Hips (2:3 = 5) and Elbows (2:2 = 4), and the father has scores of Hips (7:0 = 7) and Elbows (1:2 = 3) are these rather OK scores for the hip and elbow scoring system?

No those scores are not ok, based on the elbow scores alone neither of the parents should have been used for breeding let alone bred together!

Yes I agree, both dogs have unacceptable elbow scores and neither should have been bred from, mating the two together is very irresponsible IMO. The hip scores are both below breed average, but the sire's score of 7/0 is a bit of a concern.

Please be aware that having a registered dog doesn't automatically mean that he should be used for breeding. Unless he is an excellent representative of his breed there is absolutely no reason for him to produce puppies and unless you show him and have some success with him it is doubtful that anyone will want to use him anyway. To be quite honest, having a sire and dam with bad elbows really means that he shouldn't be bred from anyway even if his own scores are acceptable. If he was ever bred from you would have to be very careful that the bitch he went over had clear elbows and came from a line of clear elbows otherwise it is quite possible that he would pass the elbow problems on to his progeny.

You can have the dog hip and elbow scored at any time after 12 months of age.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Miranda

[Poodle wrangler]

Another issue to consider is that your dog needs to go under anaesthetic for them to do the hip/ elbow Xrays for scoring. If his parent's scores are doubtful, I'd not put him under anaesthetic as the benefit (not highly likely he's suitable to breed from) doesn't outweigh the risk.

Hip dysplasia (HD) is polygenic and variables like weight, nutrition and exercise are also important. Things you can do to help your dog avoid HD include:

* Keeping him lean- not always easy with a lab

* Special large breed diet, if you feed dry food (less protein).

* Don't overexercise him or have him running up and down flights of stairs, jumping, doing agility type exercises etc. at a young age.

Good on you for asking before getting in to breeding.

[Paganman]

So does this mean that the breeder would be liable for vet costs if one of the puppies got elbow displasia? Beacause they knew that the parents had a problem but still bred the two of them together?

[MolassesLass]

Legally it makes no difference whether they knew the parents had bad elbows or not.

If the item purchased (dog) is not suitable for what it was purchased for (breeding/showing/trialling/companion) or if the item needs repair (surgery/treatment) due to a manufacturing defect (genetic disease) that the seller was not informed of prior to sale; then the seller is liable for either a refund, repairing or a replacement.

I believe a seller can refuse to repair an item they believe to be irrepairable and insist on refund or replacement but otherwise it's the purchasers choice which to take. NOTE: refund and replacement both require the purchaser to hand the item back to the seller - though not all breeders will require this.

This is true no matter who you buy your dog from PP, a registered breeder or Joe Bloe in the newspaper.

[alanglen]

I have labradors and certainly wouldn't breed from any dogs with elbow scores that high. I would suggest that you chat with your vet about prevention tips to try and avoid elbow dysplasia as it is a very real possibility for your boy. As a matter of advice, I usually suggest xrays can be helpful for any dog to help plan for the future and the needs/abilities of the dog. This can be done at desexing (depending on age) and can be really helpful if considering dog sports etc.

Best of luck with your boy, he is adorable! I would also question the liability thou, not sure of the answer myself but if the purchaser is informed of the scores and with a multi-factorial disease (genetics, diet, weight, exercise etc), who ends up being "responsible"? Instinct says the person who chose to breed but not sure of exact legality!

Regards

Alanglen

[Paganman]

Thanks for the info molasseslass. I was just thinking that if you bred two lots of high scores together you were maybe lacking in duty of care or something like that coz theres a much bigger chance of getting elbow displaysia if the parents both have high scores than if the parents are both zero, like someone said youd have to be a pretty irresponsible breeder to do it. But then I suppose theres also buyer beware like if you dont do your research and you knowingly buy a puppy that may be at risk, have you got any right to complain if your puppy does develop the disease. Pretty complicated sort of subject. I guess just like with everything else you really need to to do your research before you buy, not much good whinging that youve got a problem if you didnt check everything out before you buy the puppy.

[Gottalovealab]

Wow, a 2:2 that is extreamly high and labs are very prone to elbow displasia. I don't understand what the breeder was thinking putting them together.

As for the 7:0 thats a little worrying too. Even though the breed average is a score of 12, it would still concern me that it was on the one side. My labs score is a seven, but is more spread out over the two hips (3:4)

Edited August 5, 2007 by Gottalovealab

[EISHUND]

Yes, I have to agree with everyone..

What on earth was that breeder thinking?? Breeding 2 dogs together with elbows like that?? :mad:

Prof Bob Wyburn writes:

"It is generally considered that dogs with grade 3 elbow dysplasia should not be used for breeding and that dogs with grade 2 should be considered a serious risk"

Charles Barnard, BVSc,M Med Vet Surgery writes

In an effort to reduce the incidence and maintain the goodwill of the breeders it would seem prudent to allow breeding where only one of the parents was affected with E.D., no worse than grade 1.

I sure hope your boy doesn't have any problems in the future

Edited August 5, 2007 by LuvMyWhiteShep

[sandgrubber]

Altough I agree with all the advice you're getting, don't panic. As I understand it the chances are still better than 50:50 that your pup will be fine. Many Labbies with 2's in the elbow never limp; and I know of a couple prominent Lab studs who have a 2 on one elbow and who have thrown a lot of sound pups. A 7:0 hip score may indicate injury and tell you nothing about genetics. (I can't locate the article, but I remember seeing an article that showed the probability of HD/OCD in a lab pup based on the status of the sire and dam. If I remember, clear sire and dam had 10% chance of having affected pups. This rose to 15% if one parent was affected and to around 25% if both parents were affected . . . has anyone else out there read the paper . . . I'm sure it's on the www somewhere.)

It's unfortunate, but chocos are in such demands that marginal breeders may cut corners to get choco pups.

[Tassie]

So, Sticks, the take-home message would seem to be that you would probably be wise not to be considering your boy - love his name, BTW - as a breeding prospect. You also have a heads-up that you might be wise to take all the precautions - environmental and diet - you can, to prevent him from developing problems in the future. IMHO, this is good practice for any dog, especially from a breed prone to HD or ED, and/or a dog that is going to be working or trialling.

The sorts of precautions that would seem to be wise would include -

- not feeding the sort of puppy food which would encourage too rapid growth - let his joint development be appropriate, not taking too great a strain;

- planning on always keeping his body condition very much on the lean side of normal (though not emaciated, of course);

- building up his muscle and ligament strength with a controlled exercise program - rather than just free play, and a lot of stop/start sort of activity.

Hopefully you're discussing these issues with your vet - hopefully a trusted vet that you have a good relationship with. Since AFAIK the dog needs to be anaestheized for the X-rays, you might want to only do that if there's a good reason.

[Paganman]

I dont think Sticks 1977 has been back to this thread since they posted it, so probably hasnt read any of the replies.