Sudden On-set Of Destructive Behaviour

[novta]

I have a 4.5 year old dog who for all her life has lived in a kennel & run outside, about 2 months ago she started getting destructive in her run, including chewing the wire (making gums bleed) and yesterday she broke a nail trying to destroy the wooden floor in her run. Symptons sound similar to seperation anxiety but can this be brough on all of a sudden? I'm at a loss what her problem maybe, I hate the fact that she hurts herself. The behaviour only happens when she is left alone, she is in her kennel when we are at home and is fine. ANy suggestions what maybe wrong & how to solve. I have had her vet checked & her health is fine.

[Erny]

It sounds as though the behaviour is based in anxiety - but that's not to automatically suggest it is separation related. Have any routines (eg. a reduction in daily exercise; someone moved in/out of the family home; etc. etc. etc.) occurred? Have there been any bad storms of late? Anything?

[PAX]

Why have a dog if it has to spend 4.5 years in a run and kennel, it would be like jail. I'm sure I would have anxiety.

[Erny]

Why have a dog if it has to spend 4.5 years in a run and kennel, it would be like jail. I'm sure I would have anxiety.

PAX - we don't know yet how much time this dog spends in the kennel/run. Perhaps the owner spends hours during each day working/exercising it. Maybe. Maybe not. But I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions yet.

[Tonymc]

well put Erny!!!!!!Thank you for your commonsense as those rushing in making assumptions get very tiring. Tony

[novta]

To PAX my dog does not spend it's life in its kennel & run, quiet the opposite, my dogs are only kennelled when we go out which is not for huge amounts of time the longest would be while I work (part-time), it's no different to people crating their dogs !! It's a matter of keep your dog secure and not having them roaming the neighbourhood. My dogs are walked every day, have human interaction & attention, do obedience, agility & sled dog racing - so hence definately not a kennel bound dog!

Erny, thank you for you reply, we have racked our brains trying to figure out what may have been a trigger, only two things we can come up with is they dogs spent a night in a boarding kennel, and she also got a urinary tract infection all around about the same time. The dogs sleep in their kennels, get feed in there, have toys etc, kongs. The strange thing about the behaviour is she may have two days when she is fine, and then two days when she obviously get stressed and destructive.

[Erny]

... only two things we can come up with is they dogs spent a night in a boarding kennel, and she also got a urinary tract infection all around about the same time. The dogs sleep in their kennels, get feed in there, have toys etc, kongs. The strange thing about the behaviour is she may have two days when she is fine, and then two days when she obviously get stressed and destructive.

Sorry - nothing's jumping out at me at the moment, with what is written. It can be really difficult at times, tracing back to a possible difinitive moment that may have been the original trigger for the behaviour.

Can you identify ANY pattern on the days she is ok, and the days she is not? Eg. Rain/windy days -vs- calm days. In kennel/run for longer period -vs- shorter period. High exercise days -vs- low exercise days.

You work part-time. When did this begin? Has there been a change in your work structure of recent times?

Does she share her kennel run with your other dog? What's their relationship like? What's the other dog's age and sexual status (entire; desexed)

Was she treated any different (eg. housed inside or whatever) whilst you were treating the UTI?

Generally, the answer is in there somewhere ..... but it can take a bit of seeking back (which I see you've already tried) - sometimes some 'outside' prompting from others can help.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

Erny, thank you for you reply, we have racked our brains trying to figure out what may have been a trigger, only two things we can come up with is they dogs spent a night in a boarding kennel, and she also got a urinary tract infection all around about the same time. The dogs sleep in their kennels, get feed in there, have toys etc, kongs. The strange thing about the behaviour is she may have two days when she is fine, and then two days when she obviously get stressed and destructive.

I'm no behaviourist, but I wonder if the answer is the UTI and kenneling combined?

I don't know if its the same for dogs as it is for us, but I know when I had an UTI I had to pee more frequently and it hurt. Does she normally pee in the kennel? If not, when she had the UTI and she was locked away, maybe she was getting anxious about the more insistent urge to go but feeling that she couldn't...then when she finally did it really hurt. Do you think that this could account for the days that she's fine? Maybe on those days she doesn't get the urge to go?

[PAX]

I have a 4.5 year old dog who for all her life has lived in a kennel & run outside, about 2 months ago she started getting destructive in her run, including chewing the wire (making gums bleed) and yesterday she broke a nail trying to destroy the wooden floor in her run.

The behaviour only happens when she is left alone, she is in her kennel when we are at home and is fine.

well put Erny!!!!!!Thank you for your commonsense as those rushing in making assumptions get very tiring. Tony

Tonmc,

'those' would be me and I responded to what was written by the OP, glad it's not the case.

[MonElite]

In PAXs defence i think it might ahve been this coment

she is in her kennel when we are at home

that brought the thought.

I admitedly thought the same when I read the first post.

[novta]

Sorry for delay in replying we have been away for the weekend.

We have taken a diary of her behaviour and can't see any common factor of days that she is fine, it is different days of the week, different weather, so nothing really springs out. I have worked part-time for about 6 months, behaviour only started about 2 months ago. There are two dogs in the family, borther & sister littermates, she is speyed, he is not. They get on great together. They are kennelled seperately and always have been, their kennels are basically side by side so they can see each other.

She was not treated any differently while she had the UTI.

Neither of the dogs toilet in their kennels, so maybe the UTI has brought this behaviour on, ie, she was in pain trying to hold on and now relates the kennel to pain?

The only other thing, we moved house about 9 months ago from a residential area where we were living with another family member and my oldest dog (who has stayed with the family member), we moved to a more rural area. Dogs were fine from day one in their kennels (it was the same kennels they had at our previous house).

Apart from that I'm not sure what else may help.

Any more suggestions would be really really apprecited. Thanks.

[Erny]

Something else to investigate, if it is at all possible ................ Does she exhibit this destructive behaviour if she is secluded from you (ie you're not home) but NOT in her kennel run?

She doesn't toilet in her kennel run? - is there a possibility that UTI has returned, even mildly?

Is she trying to hold on - and perhaps too long (which can cause bladder infection anyway) because of some aversion to toileting in her kennel run?

Edited August 6, 2007 by Erny

[Sarah L]

Good points Erny.... definitely sounds like anxiety based or health issue or even both. If the uti has returned then I had this thought to help the dog toilet in the run when novta was at work and to save the dog from holding on.

Novta..... would providing a receptacle with the substrate that your dog normally wees on eg..... grass, help with her being able to toilet in the run. This will give an association that it is ok because it is normal for her and takes away from not toileting until she is on this surface. I don't mean just filling something with grass but actually using turf grass so it has the exact same sent of what she normally wees on.

On the anxiety issue...... can you set up a video camera some where, to record both when you are there and when you are not. I am wondering if you have a neighbour problem who does not like dogs or are you near a school? where kids pass your property on the way home or is there any building work near your porperty? I am not sure of this as your other dog does not have the problem of anxiety I presume, either way the camera may help to provide some more answer's.

This is all that springs to mind from me right now and it certainly is a puzzle, I need to think about it some more too.

[Erny]

Pinnacle - you obviously have an idea of where I am headed with my questioning ;) .

Novta - having an aversion to urinating in the kennel run in the absence of having access away from it in those times of 'need' can in itself be a cause of anxiety.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Erny

[novta]

Thanks heaps for the replies - much appreciated.

I have already arranged another urine sample to be tested incase the UTI has come back, so should get results back tomorrow.

We have some bigger runs which we are yet to set up, so will get them up asap, as these can be set up temporarily put up just on the grass to see if that helps in anyway.

With regards to the video camera, just had the same thing suggested to me earlier tonight - and am definately going to try that one. I don't think it can be neighbours or schools, we don't have any schoosl or any really close neighbours, only 3 neighbours near us, they are all really nice people, and I don't think they would have done anything to scare the dog.

The other dog has no anxiety issues, and is always extremely good when kennelled while we are away. The female used to be just as good as the male until recently!

My vet has suggested Clomicalm, have you had experience with this? I'm would like to try solve the problem naturally before resorting to this.

[Sarah L]

My vet has suggested Clomicalm, have you had experience with this? I'm would like to try solve the problem naturally before resorting to this.

I have had some experience with Clomicam, when I worked as a vet nurse. In most cases it did not work, only in a small percentage of dogs with mild anxiety. Maybe other people on here will let you know there results with it. You can try some Bach Flower remedies, you can give dogs rescue remedy or have one specifically made up for the particular problem. There is a few animal naturopaths out there. Glad you are going to try the camera, looking forward to see what happens. I do hope her uti has not come back.

[Erny]

It is the spasmodical nature of your dog's behaviour that detracts from me thinking that there is an outside influence (such as school kids etc.) as if this were to be the case, the behaviour would be more likely to be exhibited to at least some extent on a more regular pattern than what you have described, Novta.

Having said that, though - perhaps the spasmodical nature of the behaviour is the result of differential of pattern with regards to when you have her in the kennel run, when you are home, and when you are not home?

For the moment I'd be inclined to refrain from resort to medications and like Pinnacle has mentioned, by themselves they don't have a particularly high success rate without behaviour modification treatment. And of course, to apply behaviour modification treatment we need to have some idea of what the cause of the behaviour might be. Which is what we are sussing out by the questions etc. in this thread. On the otherhand, I agree that meds might be something necessary if her behaviour is continuing in an self-injurious nature and cannot by any other means for the short term be prevented.

I'm glad you're getting a urine sample tested - if it comes back all clear, then at least you have eliminated a medical based suspicion for cause.

Also good if you get that other kennel run up and constructed as it too (with availability to grass) will prove a good indicator of whether the cause has been motivated by the physical need to urinate but disinclination to urinate in the existing kennel run.

On this note, for some reason, I am picturing a concrete kennel run that you currently use - is this the case?

When you do leave home (which is when you say she exhibits the behaviour), for what length of time are you away?

If it is possible to eliminate one possible cause at a time, it will be clearer as to what the cause of the problem actually is. Although sometimes behaviours need to be dealt with with more urgency than this might allow.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Erny

[Tapferhund]

Maybe she has developed some sort of neurological problem ??

[novta]

Well the Vets couldn't find anything in the Urine, but have sent it to the labs for further analysis. I really thought the UTI was back as she was exhibiting all the same signs as when she first contracted it, ie, drinking more, dying to get out for pee, and my male dog was sniffing her a lot - and she would growl at him. So unless the labs find something else, I'm back to square one!

I did try something different today, took the dogs to work with me (we have cages set up in our ute) and the dogs stayed in their for the day, she was perfectly fine the whole day. I did go out once & check on them & top up water.

When it stops raining here we will get the other runs up and I will try her in there to see what the behaviour is like.

I'm away each day for about 5 hours. Used to work full time and be away about 8 hours and she was fine.

I have been trying her on the natural 'Pet Calm' tablets but they don't seem to have much effect. Will try resuce rememdy as well.

Tapferhund - any suggestions what type of neurological problem? I can only suggest it to the Vet tomorrow when the ring with the lab results.

[Sarah L]

Well the Vets couldn't find anything in the Urine, but have sent it to the labs for further analysis. I really thought the UTI was back as she was exhibiting all the same signs as when she first contracted it, ie, drinking more, dying to get out for pee, and my male dog was sniffing her a lot - and she would growl at him. So unless the labs find something else, I'm back to square one!

Well I am glad her uti has not come back. Do you know what else the lab is testing for? Is she desexed?

I did try something different today, took the dogs to work with me (we have cages set up in our ute) and the dogs stayed in their for the day, she was perfectly fine the whole day. I did go out once & check on them & top up water.

Can you take them every day for a while to see if she does start any of the behaviour in the ute? If the behaviour does not start in the ute then it must have something to do with the run or you leaving her alone at home. At least if you do take them to work it will give us longer to figure out what is causing the problem without any drugs or more injuries to her.

When it stops raining here we will get the other runs up and I will try her in there to see what the behaviour is like.

I'm away each day for about 5 hours. Used to work full time and be away about 8 hours and she was fine.

I have been trying her on the natural 'Pet Calm' tablets but they don't seem to have much effect. Will try rescue remedy as well.

Tapferhund - any suggestions what type of neurological problem? I can only suggest it to the Vet tomorrow when the ring with the lab results.

Tapferhund you got me thinking. Novta I read back to your early posts and noticed you said the floor of the kennel was wooden. This may sound silly but you never know. What if since moving to your new property some kind of small animal has made a home under the wooden floor and initially your dog was trying to get to it. What was the wooden floor treated with if anything to seal it from the elements? If she did scrap at the floor and then licked her nail because it was broken then she may have ingested some of what it was sealed with. It may not have been enough to show any obvious poisoning or instant vomiting, but enough to affect the nervous system in some way. As I said it does sound silly but stranger things have happened. Are you still going to use the camera?

hope the lab does not find anything serious.