Pack Heirarchy In Dogs

[Sarah L]

I would like to say what a fab thread this has been, I have been reading with great interest.

I have more questions than comments. Thanks to sardogs post I had been trying to remember the name of the man who had studied wolves in Canada which was answered for me. I had seen his series of docos on BBC2 back home in Scotland. I found his study very amazing indeed. He had a female assistant who noticed that the old school of thought on the male always being the 'Alpha" dog in wolf packs may not be quite true. Through further study Tom found she was right and this opened a new way of thinking on how pack behaviour worked. If memory serves me right they found that no matter how well the resource or hunting skills the male had it was the female that the survival of the pack depended on. With the females more complete skills in more areas of daily pack life this often outranked the males. Although the hierarchy was fluid at times ultimately the 'Alpha" was female more often than not.

ok so the above was comments

My questions are:

How many of you that live the both male and female dogs would say the female is the leader of your dog pack?

What affect if any has desexing affected the pack order of your dogs?

I do have more questions but I am trying to think of the right way to word them first.

I am curious as a comparison behaviour between pet dogs and wolves.

[jesomil]

I would like to say what a fab thread this has been, I have been reading with great interest.

It is really good hearing everyones opinions. So much to think about. I am embarrassed to admit it, but i found myself lying awake in the early hours of this morning thinking through pack structure. How sad is that .

How many of you that live the both male and female dogs would say the female is the leader of your dog pack?

I have never noticed a "leader" as such but i do notice that females tend to be a bit bossier perhaps.

What affect if any has desexing affected the pack order of your dogs?

Very good question, I hadnt thought of that. I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this.

[KitKat]

My old dog Harm (RIP) was a good alpha - that didn't change when he was desexed either (6yrs old or so)- still top dog. He occasionally shared his possie with a female BC who was more obvious about being top dog...but if she nagged him to much he'd put his foot down and she'd settle - bit like watching an unusual married couple...lol.

My two current dogs are male, once desexed at 6 months is alpha still over the one desexed at 15months - neither push the rank issue with me...but do with my OH. I don't have any bitches at my house - other then me...and the Birman

Not sure if it's true but i've noticed that as often as not male dogs are happy enough to submit to an alpha type female (human or dog) where as bitches are more likely to continue to push the issue if given the chance - or at least more so then dogs - desexed or not....

[Kelpie-i]

I'm really enjoying this thread...

I have a question which has been plagueing me for sometime. A colleague of mine is adamant that the wolf is not actually the ancestor of domestic dogs but rather the jackal is. This is due to certain characteristic and behaviours of the Jackal that are frightingly similar to those of dogs ie. their loose pack and hunting for individual purposes rather than for the pack etc.

I've always argued with him about this but would like to know what you guys think?

[Kelpie-i]

Just further to my thread (above)....is it possible that perhaps our domestic dog did derive from the Jackal???

Here is an interesting snippet from a website (http://www.yptenc.org.uk/docs/factsheets/animal_facts/jackal.html)

Jackals are true members of the dog family and can actually interbreed with both domestic dogs and wolves. There are four species of jackal:- the golden jackal (sometimes known as the common or Indian jackal), the black-backed jackal (sometimes known as the silver-backed), the side-striped jackal, and the very rare Simien jackal.

Although golden jackals usually kill their own prey, they will sometimes eat carrion, often scavenging left-overs from lion kills

For centuries, golden jackals have made an impression on Middle Eastern civilisations. They feature in many fables, are referred to in the Bible several times, and Anubis, a god of ancient Egypt, was depicted as a man with the head of a jackal.

Jackal pups that have been hand-raised can be quite easily tamed. They may be housebroken and behave rather like a pet dog. However, they will not allow themselves to be petted by strangers.

Golden jackals often scavenge around towns and villages, eating rubbish and dead animals - a habit which is beneficial to the human community. They also eat rodents and rabbits, keeping their numbers down, which helps farmers. However, they also raid crops such as maize, sugarcane and watermelon - not so beneficial to humans! In some areas they attack sheep, and farmers have had to erect jackal-proof fences around their fields.

As they are members of the dog family, it is possible that golden jackals may be involved in the spread of rabies.

Sometimes golden jackals are hunted for their fur. However, being adaptable animals they are still common and are at no risk of becoming endangered.

It certainly makes me think that perhaps....just maybe our dog IS actually a domesticated Jackal.

ETA: Or that some breeds of dogs derive from wolves and others from Jackals???

Edited August 1, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[BJean]

[Most things I've read about raising wolves as "pets" suggest that it's very different to raising a dog - e.g most sources suggest that the pup should be taken away from the dam at about 2 to 3 weeks old and allowed very little contact with other canines for several weeks afterwards, that this is necessary for the pup to bond with people. And most also suggest that the wolf is never let anywhere near small children since you're unlikely to be able to train the wolf not to see a small child as a snack. Most also say that wolves and even wolf-dogs are too shy to guard anything from strangers.

I don't know much at all about LGD, so don't really know if these traits and requirements are similar to those of LGD. I have heard that LGD definately unusual and not suited for most homes, as you say. I don't think I could properly handle one (or a wolf either for that matter!)

Yes LGDs must differentiate from the wolf in their defence reaction as they were selected by man over 1000s of years to outthink, overpower - to defend against and succesfully combat with wolves.

So maybe they had to be able to think like their enemy, to overcome them?

Central Asians are referred to as "volkodav" - wolf strangler

Edited August 1, 2007 by lilli

[Cosmolo]

Pinnacle- one of my female dogs is not the leader, but to the unknowing or uneducated eye, she could appear to be as she does the most out of any of the dogs in terms of discipline, obvious posturing, gaining resources etc. But i'm pretty sure the male is top dog.

[Gwinganna]

I have one dog, 12 weeks old. She thinks she is the boss of Jude, who's 3, because he gets down on the ground and lies there while she climbs on him and licks his face. She also likes to try to lord it over my wife, who needs to be more assertive and less "come her poochie kins, oooh, who's the cutest widdle girl in da whole wide word?" Ditto for my daughter. My 5 year old son on the other hand has her in her place, but he likes to help train her, and that makes a difference. I am the pack leader. I come in the door and she throws herself at my feet still, but I ignore her until she behaves more demurely and sits like a lady ready to be patted. She calms down very quickly now. She is learning.

[Silvawilow]

In my three dogs one is the clear leader. Nobody will walk near her, get toys out of her bed, look at her while she is eating or when she has a toy. She doesn't have to do anything to get their respect, she just has it. I can see it in the way she walks near them, they will always give her space, it is as though she has a force field around her, it is very interesting to watch. She will play with them at times but it is always on her terms, she starts and ends the games.

The other two are quite equal although one is above the other with food.

OMG, you've just explained my three dogs, you must have ESP

My eldest girl is the boss and then the other 2 come under her. I could watch them for hours, it's quite interesting.

[Kelpie-i]

In my three dogs one is the clear leader. Nobody will walk near her, get toys out of her bed, look at her while she is eating or when she has a toy. She doesn't have to do anything to get their respect, she just has it. I can see it in the way she walks near them, they will always give her space, it is as though she has a force field around her, it is very interesting to watch. She will play with them at times but it is always on her terms, she starts and ends the games.

The other two are quite equal although one is above the other with food.

I saw these same characteristics in a previous boss I had at work. Everyone feared him and we certainly did not see him as a leader, more so a bully.

My intepretation of a leader is the one they all follow!!

Edited August 1, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[jesomil]

How very interesting about the jackal. That puts a whole new slant on things!!

How do we know that dogs descended from Wolves? Or is it just something that people assumed?

[Gottalovealab]

How very interesting about the jackal. That puts a whole new slant on things!!

How do we know that dogs descended from Wolves? Or is it just something that people assumed?

From what i have read, jesomil, domestic dogs have been put under its own species (Canis Familiarus) and also under wolves as a sub spicies (Canis Lupus Familiarus) and seem to change quite often. I guess the problem with this and also why the origin of dogs is debated so much, is that all species under the CANIS Geno can interbreed. This includes Jackals, wolves and Coyote. This does not include wild dogs, as they are put under a different Geno (Lycaon Pictus). So it is very probable that dogs could have come from different speices throughout time. Makes it hard for scientists to trace back the origins of our dogs, when they we're the most distributed animals on the planet (and indeed canides still are).

i found this write up quite interesting:

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm

especially this passage here:

The archaeological record cannot resolve whether domestic dogs originated from a single wolf population or arose from multiple populations at different times (1, 2). However, circumstantial evidence suggests that dogs may have diverse origins (3). During most of the late Pleistocene, humans and wolves coexisted over a wide geographic area (1), providing ample opportunity for independent domestication events and continued genetic exchange between wolves and dogs. The extreme phenotypic diversity of dogs, even during the early stages of domestication (1, 3, 4), also suggests a varied genetic heritage. Consequently, the genetic diversity of dogs may have been enriched by multiple founding events, possibly followed by occasional interbreeding with wild wolf populations.

So it even suggests here, that the dog during the domestication "period" may still have interbred with the wild wolf populations and indeed have different origins (Which i tend to think could be the case, primative humans would not have had the resources to contain their new companions)

And this here:

We sequenced portions of the mitochondrial DNA of wolves and domestic dogs. Initially, 261 base pairs (bp) of the left domain of the mitochondrial control region (5) were sequenced from 140 dogs representing 67 breeds and five cross-breeds and 162 wolves representing 27 populations from throughout Europe, Asia, and North America (Fig. 1) (6). Because all wild species of the genus Canis can interbreed (7) and thus are potential ancestors of the domestic dog, five coyotes (Canis latrans) and two golden, two black-backed, and eight Simien jackals (C. aureus, C. mesomelas, and C. simensis, respectively) were also sequenced.

Unfortunately im a genetic bimbo so i kinda skipped that part ( and most of it Can someone decipher the whole write up for me? ) But i did highlight that Jackals were used in this experiment as all come under the CANIS Geno.

I will add that this is an excellent thread, guys. I couldn't keep my mind on my work today ;)

ETA Jackals do usually live as pairs, but sometimes have a "helper" (usually one or two offspring from the year before). Jackals are a lot more smaller and also hunt smaller prey. Maybe this is why they don't need to live together in a big pack?? Take the wild dogs for example. They live in the same area, but their game is bigger and thus need more pack members to take down their prey.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Gottalovealab

[Sarah L]

Kelpi-i

Konrad Lorenz has a fantastic book called Man Meets Dog. He does discuss the the Jackal factor in this book.

I have this book but have not read it for years, now because of this thread I must go look it out and re read it. ;)

[Kelpie-i]

Pinnacle dts, yes I have this book but found it a little difficult to follow. ;)

I think Coppinger also stated that we cannot be sure that dog evolved from the wolf and is still involved with this research. Again, there was an extremely interesting documentary on Foxtel (a couple of years ago) with Ray Coppinger about this. I'll have to dredge it up and re-watch it.

If anyone ever gets the chance to go the USA, there is a wolf park in Indiannapolis who runs regular 3 day workshops which include theories on the domestication of dogs. Ray Coppinger sometimes lectures these workshops. My OH and I are planning on taking this trip next year. If anyone here has already been and attended the workshop....pls fill us in!!

[Erny]

Pinnacle dts, yes I have this book but found it a little difficult to follow.

I agree - it is something that needs to be read slowly and perhaps incrementally, to an extent.

I think Coppinger also stated that we cannot be sure that dog evolved from the wolf and is still involved with this research. Again, there was an extremely interesting documentary on Foxtel (a couple of years ago) with Ray Coppinger about this. I'll have to dredge it up and re-watch it.

Yes - it was Coppinger. I like his thoughts - he tends to think outside the square and questions the findings of the founders even though their thoughts and interpretations have been accepted and believed for a long time. I think he writes that Jackals are the only Canis species (except for dogs) who sweat through their feet. Given that the Canis familiaris (dogs) species sweat through their feet, it does give pause to wonder on the connection between the two. (Mind you, I love Wolves and much prefer to think that dogs decend from them rather than Jackals, but that's just sentimentality at work and it would be deletorious to dogs for us to refuse to think and explore otherwise.)

But I also wonder - it is written that all Canis species (ie Wolves; Jackals; etc) decended from some other more ancient Canis geno (hope I'm using the right words here). Now, if that's the case, perhaps the ability to sweat through paws is a throw-back from it. Could it be that Wolves, whilst not possessing this ability, threw this physiological trait on? In which case, it might be able to be ruled out as 'evidence' (term used loosely here) of dog's decendance from Jackals. ETA: I am not suggesting that "sweating through paws" is the only factor that has bearing to the suggestion of dogs' decendance from Jackals. It's just one thought on one thing and I'm really only thinking aloud. I don't expect an answer.

If anyone ever gets the chance to go the USA, there is a wolf park in Indiannapolis who runs regular 3 day workshops which include theories on the domestication of dogs. Ray Coppinger sometimes lectures these workshops. My OH and I are planning on taking this trip next year. If anyone here has already been and attended the workshop....pls fill us in!!

I'd love this.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Erny

[Gottalovealab]

But I also wonder - it is written that all Canis species (ie Wolves; Jackals; etc) decended from some other more ancient Canis geno (hope I'm using the right words here). Now, if that's the case, perhaps the ability to sweat through paws is a throw-back from it. Could it be that Wolves, whilst not possessing this ability, threw this physiological trait on? In which case, it might be able to be ruled out as 'evidence' (term used loosely here) of dog's decendance from Jackals. ETA: I am not suggesting that "sweating through paws" is the only factor that has bearing to the suggestion of dogs' decendance from Jackals. It's just one thought on one thing and I'm really only thinking aloud. I don't expect an answer.

I believe you would be correct in saying that all Canis species came from the same ancient Geno. If this we're indeed the case and all of these sub-species (later turn into species ie Wolves, Jackals etc) we're so wide spread over the world, whats to say these now seperate species didn't evolve "sweating from the pads" ( my wording sucks ), by themselves? Could domestic dogs over thousands of years, develop this as well, or is it too small a time frame? I guess we can see the benefit from a Jackals point of view of why this adaption would take place, you just need to look at the habitat they live in.

I saw an article a while ago, discussing the time frame of the canide species and where they are descendant from. I can't for the life of me remember..... I will have to go searching.

I must admit, dogs being a descendant of the wolf sounds a lot more appealing. Its what we have been told over many years, it just sounds right

[Kelpie-i]

Gottalovealab my wording sucks more

Slightly OT but flavoured around this topic, there was a study on the hippopotamus and its origins and it seems that both the hippo and whales actually derived from the same prehistoric mammal which means that they are both linked. Now whilst I have no interest in hippos (although I love all creatures with a soft spot for whales), it certainly adds some insight into this topic and to what Erny has mentioned.

Erny, do you believe that this Canis geno would have been a prehistoric type animal which then "branched" off into the various canis species?

Yes I too love wolves.....so much so that in my previous house, I had a whole room dedicated to the wolf. I would still love to believe that the wolf is the ancestor of my favourite animal, however the fact that the Jackal is very similar to the dog in many ways is way too intriguing to just shove to the side.

[Erny]

Erny, do you believe that this Canis geno would have been a prehistoric type animal which then "branched" off into the various canis species?

Kelpie-i ...... not sure what I "believe" at the moment, but it does sound plausible. Coppinger talks about all other 'species' of dogs then representing 'races' who developed into what they are today as a result of their individual habitats. (Which is pretty much what GottaLoveaLab has hypothesised above.) I need to re-address this by further study and to also refresh my memory on what I've already read in the past.

I would still love to believe that the wolf is the ancestor of my favourite animal, however the fact that the Jackal is very similar to the dog in many ways is way too intriguing to just shove to the side.

Too true.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Erny

[Gottalovealab]

although i did not find the exact article i wanted, i did find this interesting read:

http://canidae.ca/EVOLUTIO.HTM

This article talks about Tomarctus which both foxes and wolves lineage comes from. It also talks about the Dire wolf (now extinct) and how it directly comes from that lineage, but is still uncertain whether the Grey Wolf comes from a different lineage. But there is still the possibility of interbreeding, as they co existed together 40 000 years ago.

Im confused

[Erny]

... is still uncertain whether the Grey Wolf comes from a different lineage. But there is still the possibility of interbreeding, as they co existed together 40 000 years ago.

Im confused

Yes - I recently read this in Coppinger as well. I temporarily tucked it away in the far corners of my mind - the thought of keeping up with who comes from who otherwise became more confusing than it already is!!!

Thanks for the link ..... will have a look at it after dinner. Hamburger and fish and chips night tonight. Yummmmmm.