Pack Heirarchy In Dogs

[Erny]

Of course, I daren't tell my sister in law that when he does it to her, he's checking to see if she's in season

Sorry about the "in brief" part - I try not to steer threads off topic .... although due to interest in comments contained in posts, I tend to fail miserably at this.

Yes - I know what you mean about the "nose punching". I wasn't sure that was what you were referring to or whether it was something else. Thanks for telling.

[Tonymc]

I would say that Pack Order in Domestic Dogs, has more variance than the rigid pack order of Wolves.The difference to me is tied in with survival.Survival for the average domestic Dog is easier than survival for the Wolf.

I and others have noted also the same thing comparing domestic dogs to wild dogs in the Mountains. Tony

[Red Mal]

I would say that Pack Order in Domestic Dogs, has more variance than the rigid pack order of Wolves.The difference to me is tied in with survival.Survival for the average domestic Dog is easier than survival for the Wolf.

Ah, but do they know this ?? WE know they don't need to fight for survival, but does your average domestic dog feel this or is this the reason, there are a some dogs with serious dominance issues, hence the need to lead the pack for survival ???

[BJean]

I was amazed the first time I studied this and realised that the dog I have now does the 'Kill'. He picks up his toy monkey shakes the living daylights out of it (killing it) then drops it on the floor. He then proceeds to push it hard with his nose (mouth closed) and looks quite strange. Of course it's a toy, but the actions are exactly the same and obviously something inherant in him.

I thought this was how all dogs play with any toys

or with any kill?

[Red Mal]

I've spoken to hundreds of dog owners and breeders and exhibitors and only twice come accross people whos dogs did the 'nose push' !

Are you saying all the dogs you know do this ?

[Erny]

Speaking unscientifically (in other words, I haven't read anything on it - not to suggest it is not written or proven), but I would suggest that if we released a pack of our domestic dogs to live wild, their inate sense of 'pack' would return and that it would hold more definition than much of what owners depict in their dogs at home. I believe it is there - always. With different dogs it seems more dormant than in others.

The same can be said of herding instincts. I attended one of the herding days Four Paws K9 Training run. I watched "raw" (ie never herded before) dogs who got in with the sheep and almost immediately "knew" what they wanted to do. I watched others who initially didn't seem to have a clue, but with a little time, patience and guidance, I could see their instinct gently rise, unfold and bloom.

It's there. In different strengths. But it is there. But I very much believe the dog's environment and current situation has a big impact on it.

[BJean]

I've spoken to hundreds of dog owners and breeders and exhibitors and only twice come accross people whos dogs did the 'nose push' !

Are you saying all the dogs you know do this ?

Yes - whether it's a short lived toy or an unfortunate possum or large rat / vermin that has strayed into my dog's territory.

That's 15 years being entertained by Anatolians and their antics

and 6 years incorporating Central Asians into the mix.

And not just my dogs - other breeders and owners comments also

ETA: One poor male relative received a nose push (punch) to the groin when he went outisde to visit the dogs.

I told him the dog was just saying hello, in a friendly but assertive manner

Edited July 31, 2007 by lilli

[jesomil]

As always Amhailte, excellent posts .

So IMO dogs do have some interest in hierachy, do have a drive to seek companionship, and will recognise the authority of a strong leader, and sometimes will take advantage of weak humans in order to get their own way (which is what we call "dominance problems"). But they don't necessarily have a strong rigid social structure between them - from what I've seen, social structure in dogs often changes depending on circumstance. And from what I've seen, most well adjusted dogs aren't obsessive about status.

I very much agree with this.

I found a particular story of Cesar Milans interesting. Series 1 episode 16 and i will quote directly from it. It is a story about 3 dogs living together and the 2 bitches have started fighting sometimes.

Cesar says, "Everytime a dog behaves dominant in a household around the other dogs, 99% of the time the owner is not in total control. When the owner has 100% control, they dont play dominant rules".

He also says "The whole pack walks together. When you go to work, they must be left alone tired. If you choose to live with a pack, you must take on the responsibility". "With a calm submissive mind, they will relate as family and will help each other, not destroy each other".

Cesar treats all his pack as number 2. I dont believe we humans should try and inforce who plays what role within a pack.

Alot of pack problems seem to stem from there not being a strong enough leader and the dogs/s being spoilt or leader having favouritism. I think we confuse dogs by not being a strong leader or by only being a strong leader sometimes.

Whether you agree with Cesar or not, i think he makes some valid points.

[Erny]

I've spoken to hundreds of dog owners and breeders and exhibitors and only twice come accross people whos dogs did the 'nose push' !

Are you saying all the dogs you know do this ?

Is this question directed to me, or the poster above, RM?

I believe it is an instinct and that more dogs "know" it (instinctively) than we might think, but that the instinct needs to be triggered - and I don't think this happens frequently. I had a human-aggressive dog "nose punch" me in recent times and have come across the behaviour once or twice more over the years past.

[Red Mal]

I agree Erny and sometimes it's us the humans that cloak this instinct without realising it.

The first time my first Mal went on a Rig (to race) having never done it and never been taught the directional commands he followed the 'musher's' every command with complete focus and finished the race 3rd over rough terrain, in a forest, where usually he would have his nose to the ground sniffing and weeing What amazed me was that he had a harness and rig attached to him and he stood there like 'what the heck ????' until the musher mounted the rig and yelled on...........he was gone like a bullett without hesitation and I have since seen many sled dogs do the same. There's no other explanation except for instinct

[Red Mal]

I've spoken to hundreds of dog owners and breeders and exhibitors and only twice come accross people whos dogs did the 'nose push' !

Are you saying all the dogs you know do this ?

Is this question directed to me, or the poster above, RM?

I believe it is an instinct and that more dogs "know" it (instinctively) than we might think, but that the instinct needs to be triggered - and I don't think this happens frequently. I had a human-aggressive dog "nose punch" me in recent times and have come across the behaviour once or twice more over the years past.

No it wasn't directed at you Yes I think, once we recognise something, we start to notice it more, although I think some people don't understand when I describe it, they assume their dog does it. My sister in law (again) is a prime example, always said her JRT did it, until I watched him and the behaviour was totally different, to the 'nose punch'.

[Erny]

... some people don't understand when I describe it, they assume their dog does it. My sister in law (again) is a prime example, always said her JRT did it, until I watched him and the behaviour was totally different, to the 'nose punch'.

I understand what you're saying. If I was teasing my avatar girl (usually trying to get her to play with a toy), she'd get p#$$ed off (although in a friendly way) and she'd nose punch the toy back at me. If I had to feed her something (eg. medication) that she didn't want (on each of those occasions - only two - the meds made her more ill - perhaps she knew something I didn't She was fine with all other meds I had to administer), she'd sometimes try the same thing. It may have some derivative of "instinct" to it but was altered due to learnt behaviour. That I'm not sure (rescue dog). But it was her gentle but firm way of saying to me she didn't want what I was doing - it was not about provoking or testing a reaction - in fact it was quite the opposite. I would not class this as "nose punching" although others might.

ETA: When I use my computer mouse to move to another thread or forum and it 'freezes', I "punch" the mouse button to get a reaction . Doesn't always work though .

Edited July 31, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

RM, my GSD nose punches things and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is pretty much a GSD trait as I have talked to many GSD owners who say the same thing.

Am, I think you're spot on when you say that we are better off studying a pack of wild dogs as opposed to wolves to find our answers to the "pack" questions.

Wolves and dogs, whilst closely related by DNA (BTW, did you know that the Greyhound carries 99% wolf DNA?), are two different animals these days. The wolf, from what I've read and watched on doco's, does adhere to a very strict pack structure which I don't believe to be very flexible. Each member of the pack has a purpose (or job) in assisting in the survival of the pack.

Here are my thoughts on the differences:

Wolves live in a pack and in order to survive and multiply they need to work as a team with each member serving a purpose which is why the strict hierarchy is necessary. Unlike dogs, wolves are not fed, housed and nurtered by humans - they must do this for themselves.

Dogs, on the other hand, are forced into a situation where there may be other dogs within the family. Their main aim here is not survival of the pack, but rather survival of themselves as individuals. Therefore whilst they do form a pack (as instinct tells them to), the rules are different which is why the structure is so fluid. There may sometimes be a more dominant dog within the pack who other dogs may keep away from, but this is merely an individual personality, pretty much like the bully work colleague.

With all that said, it is imperative that humans, as guardians of dogs, act as a leader to keep the peace within the pack so that each dog co-exists mutually. There will be resources that each dog will want and perhaps fight over so it is up to the human to ensure that this resource is controlled.

As owner of 4 dogs, the eldest of the group who is the 14 yr GSD is clearly the one everyone else is scared of, but he will allow the others to have the resource once he's finished or if he doesn't feel he wants it. However, if he wants it and one of the other dogs has it, he will bully until he gets it or the others may just simply give it up. The same goes for each other dog and their own resources. At any other time, I don't normally see a clear cut hierarchy, just 4 dogs co-existing together with myself as the person they look up to for guidance.

[Gottalovealab]

ETA: When I use my computer mouse to move to another thread or forum and it 'freezes', I "punch" the mouse button to get a reaction . Doesn't always work though :p.

Going back to you're earlier post, Erny on releasing a domesticated "pack" of dogs into the wild, i agree with what you say. I feel many of the instincts would re-surface, despite the thousands of years of domestication.

[Erny]

Going back to you're earlier post, Erny on releasing a domesticated "pack" of dogs into the wild, i agree with what you say. I feel many of the instincts would re-surface, despite the thousands of years of domestication.

Provided the dogs can survive the initial withdrawal of the ready supply of kibble ............................................................

............................................................

............................... and their squeaky toys.

[jesomil]

As always, great post Kelpie-i.

You have basically said what i thought goes on with a domesticated dog pack.

I just got a bit confused because some people were adament on the set structure of our dogs and i was finding that hard to understand and believe.

As owner of 4 dogs, the eldest of the group who is the 14 yr GSD is clearly the one everyone else is scared of, but he will allow the others to have the resource once he's finished or if he doesn't feel he wants it. However, if he wants it and one of the other dogs has it, he will bully until he gets it or the others may just simply give it up. The same goes for each other dog and their own resources. At any other time, I don't normally see a clear cut hierarchy, just 4 dogs co-existing together with myself as the person they look up to for guidance.

This is exactly how i would describe my dogs also.

ETA sory i forgot to mention great posts Cosmolo and Erny and everyone else who gave their opinions. There is lots to think about!!

Edited July 31, 2007 by jesomil

[Sardog]

We, SARDA - Search & Rescue Dogs Australia, are bringing Tom Middlemas out from Scotland, arriving on Sept. 14th for a sar training workshop, assessment and re-testing the operational sardogs for their bi-annual upgrade.

I have forwarded this thread (thus far) for his input.

He lived with and studied a wolf pack in Canada for 9 months and produced amazing information back regarding the pack structure etc. He has extensive writings regarding same and has been approached to write "another" book on this topic but to date he has not made much progress.

I hope he can send dol his input (probably via me) on this subject, if not, I will ask him personally as he will be with us for 3 weeks.

He recently lost his wolf "Kai" at the age of 19yo (was domesticated to a certain degree). He went to live with Tom as a 5yo I think. His webpage refers to Kai.

www.tommiddlemas.com

[Erny]

As always, great post Kelpie-i.

ETA sory i forgot to mention great posts Cosmolo and Erny and everyone else who gave their opinions.

Well thank goodness. I was beginning to feel unloved.

Enjoyable topic to discuss Jesomil. Thanks for placing it.

[Gottalovealab]

We, SARDA - Search & Rescue Dogs Australia, are bringing Tom Middlemas out from Scotland, arriving on Sept. 14th for a sar training workshop, assessment and re-testing the operational sardogs for their bi-annual upgrade.

I have forwarded this thread (thus far) for his input.

He lived with and studied a wolf pack in Canada for 9 months and produced amazing information back regarding the pack structure etc. He has extensive writings regarding same and has been approached to write "another" book on this topic but to date he has not made much progress.

I hope he can send dol his input (probably via me) on this subject, if not, I will ask him personally as he will be with us for 3 weeks.

He recently lost his wolf "Kai" at the age of 19yo (was domesticated to a certain degree). He went to live with Tom as a 5yo I think. His webpage refers to Kai.

www.tommiddlemas.com

Thanks for the link, Sardog. Off to go read

[BJean]

You have basically said what i thought goes on with a domesticated dog pack.

I just got a bit confused because some people were adament on the set structure of our dogs and i was finding that hard to understand and believe.

Working LGDs need a strong sense of pack hierachy as it prevents a lot of serious incidents from occurring.

Even LGDs that aren't strictly working - so even two living together in what could be described as a suburban domestic dog pack, will have this characteristic.

If you were to see three Anatolians for example working OR living together

you would not find such a pack structure peculiar.

In fact many problems that owners face with these dogs is that don't believe that their dog

seriously views the world from an ingrained pack perspective.

When considering the possibilty of a set pack structure with these dogs,

consider the expanse of time from which they evolved and that they were bred to work alongside man and not 'for' him. That these dogs were selected for their independent guarding and defence abilities, and somewhat of a psychological ascendancy - they will accept that a dominant dog or human controls a situation but if they see insecurity they will attempt to claim that leadership.

A set pack structure strictly enforced, stopped large, powerful very territorial dogs which had to co-exist from entering into serious altercations.

Anatolians tend also to get along better with their 'own' (ie: Central Asian, Sarplaninac, Maremma, Komondor) than with other more recent breeds. This has been attributed to the possibilty, that amongst themselves, flock guardian breeds read and respect signals, that other dogs may not be aware of and/or don't pick up or respond to.

Edited July 31, 2007 by lilli