J... Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 (edited) I like what you're saying feralpup, the "less training to get to optimum performance" is more about knowing how to harness the drive that they have, not so much less training as such ... But I reckon you're also right, because utilising the correct drive seems to teach the dog to think of the best way to get that "reward" whether it be food or toy or praise. The best thing is that a training session is always reliable while I have control of that drive. I don't have days where its shitty and windy with distracting leaves going everywhere, or like today having two strange dogs rock up, so it doesn't affect our ability to train because the distractions disappear. ;) So its like your training time becomes more efficient... thats just my take on it anyway! The only dodgy training sessions we have these days is because her handlers an unco at all this agility stuff we're learning Edited July 31, 2007 by feralpup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hmm wouldn't put it past her clicking mad she is pyscho about food. Having said that your more likely to get her to jump off a cliff into water if you threw a stick . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadWombat Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Highly driven dog's for me please every day of the week. I love dogs that are slaves to their instincts. Ideally I'd like a dog that is highly driven but working somewhere in the middle of that drives range (medium intensity?). I find this provides the motivation I need and also a level of stimulation that still allows the dog to think/learn at an acceptable rate. I'm not 100% on this but I tend to believe that how driven a dog is (prey,defence, pack etc..) is largely fixed in the genetic make up of the dog and it is mostly the range or intensity of that drive that we shape with training. For instance, a low prey drive dog that displays strong prey based behaviour during retrieves as the owner has done retrieves with the dog from an early age. Or, the highly prey driven dog that exhibits little to no prey based behaviour due to training to repress this. Then of course there is the highly Prey driven dog that recieves lots of training to further promote that drive and eventually ends up so overstimulated that learning is next to impossible. I think the level of drive is still the same as it was to start with, it's only the intensity or range of the drive that is altered. Sx$t....now I'm confused. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 You've got me thinking DW. Good onya, I like that The more I think the more I learn. Ideally I'd like a dog that is highly driven but working somewhere in the middle of that drives range (medium intensity?). I find this provides the motivation I need and also a level of stimulation that still allows the dog to think/learn at an acceptable rate. What you're saying here is basically supported by the stuff that I've learned from K9 Force about drives. There is an area or part of the drive progression of behaviours where little learning occurs. What happens immediately before and after that part of the drive is where you get the best learning out of the dog. I'm not 100% on this but I tend to believe that how driven a dog is (prey,defence, pack etc..) is largely fixed in the genetic make up of the dog and it is mostly the range or intensity of that drive that we shape with training. I think this is right because:.... For instance, a low prey drive dog that displays strong prey based behaviour during retrieves as the owner has done retrieves with the dog from an early age. But is this really a low prey drive dog? Is it just that since he gets prey drive satisfaction during the retrieve that he has little need to display the drive under other circumstances? If he wasn't being trained in the retrieve, would he otherwise be expressing high prey drive characteristics in perhaps unwanted ways? Or, the highly prey driven dog that exhibits little to no prey based behaviour due to training to repress this. And is this bleeding over into other unwanted destructive or stress based behaviours. I know of a border collie who is not worked who is a nuisance barker and a kelpie that is not worked who paces the owners backyard obsessively and they complain that he has worn a track in the lawn. These are otherwise socially well behaved and obedient dogs. So have the drives really been repressed? Or are they just being expressed in other ways? Then of course there is the highly Prey driven dog that recieves lots of training to further promote that drive and eventually ends up so overstimulated that learning is next to impossible. They are trying to train him in the wrong part of the drive then I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Lab,sorry for the delay in replying to you.At the moment I am way too busy too compete with Dogs or Horses.Currently are tied up with bringing a new business to Australia. What are the Dogs used for you asked?Droving,mustering,contract mustering,guard and hunting. I have an interest in a number of Horse and Dog Sports.I would love to get involved in Schutzhund.Also I would like to see Cattledog trials conducted from Horseback. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Just recently got thinking about this again. I'm talking more of drive in order to have a good, enthusiastic worker. Do you think that you could have a moderate drive dog and the owner could quench that drive? Do you think confusion, or not knowing what they are doing can quench drive? What about too much repetition? OR - if they are high drive, no matter what they do and how many times they do it they will be firing on all cylinders. Reasons for these thoughts. I wouldn't classify Leo as a 'low' drive dog. Show him a piece of dry food and he will be jumping through hoops to get it.... show him a ball and he will go to the ends of the earth for it. Show him a tug, and he will only play with that enthusiastically before entering the ring .... but at training will play with it quite a bit (before and after a run) But I often wonder, being my first dog, whether in some cases I would have been able to train him better and bring the drive out more had I known more at the time. Simple things such as ways to make training fun, not making it so regimented and classes going on F O R E V E R! The more I have broken down training, the more enthusiastic he has been. Bring him home from a training session and he is as quiet as a mouse. I see people who run agility courses over and over, yet never reward for it.... some then wonder why the dog is running so slow, and others have dogs that would run a course ALL day and never get tired of it.... It's really interesting... I find it really hard to define exactly what IS and what isn't a high drive dog?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Well on clicking mad's description Ness would be considered a high drive not a low drive dog . OMG she would do anything for just 1 little bit of food. She would probably jump off a cliff if you asked for it. Hi, Do you label Ness as low drive in agility because she is slower than you woud like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 In terms of drives I would choose high pack drive over hunt/prey drive any day. I have found that it is easy to build hunt/prey/food drives but almost impossible to build pack drive. Dogs with very low pack drive are difficult to train even if they are desperate to get a tug toy, bird, or food. And besides that, its no fun being around a dog that doesn't give two hoots about you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yes Tangwyn, She certainly is slower then I would like although can have some pretty half decent runs and she certainly isn't the slowest BC/500 dog out there by any stretch. I know quite a few who struggle to make even excellent level times whereas she cruised through those times. Time wasn't an issue. She just isn't your 4.2-4.3 m/sec jumping dog unless the course is a nice one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 Leopuppy I think I do quench some drive in my dogs because I don't like bouncy, hyper dogs at home. The same sort of bouncy, hyperness makes heeling look special. I do tell them to settle down a fair bit. I now find I have to razz Brock up! Or I have just managed to buy 3 super quiet border collies in a row! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 Just recently got thinking about this again. I'm talking more of drive in order to have a good, enthusiastic worker. Do you think that you could have a moderate drive dog and the owner could quench that drive? If by 'quench' you mean satisfy, then yes. If you mean can the owner reduce the drive in a dog, then my answer is yes also. If you watch a dog that is engaging in an activity that is based in a positive drive, that it enjoys and that is not a part of training, and then you call the dog to start a training session and its body language changes, i.e. it loses some intensity of focus, it loses that kind of relaxed but energetic look then there is something about the training that reduces the dogs drive. Do you think confusion, or not knowing what they are doing can quench drive? Yes. Think about it like this....where you work, you know your job sooo well that you do it almost on a subconcious basis. Then one day, something about the job that you do changes...the computer system or cash register system that you use has an update and the way that you use it changes. For a while and until you get used to the changes, there are elements of your day to day work that you have to slow down on and think your way through rather than doing them on automatic pilot. There may also be a slight level of resistance at attempting those elements of your job that mean that you have to utilise the new changes, you might want to put them off for a bit until you have less distraction and can concentrate. Or think about how stressed you felt about a new job until you could do it on automatic pilot. Dogs will always show some level of confusion when a new criteria is added to an exercise. I think that in instances where this confusion manifests, if its not handled carefully, or if it happens too frequently, or if for any reason the dog feels rushed to get it right, dogs classically condition an attitude towards training that involves lack of confidence or resistance towards those activities and about what they have to do to earn the reward. The mistakes that you see handlers make most often when confusion arises is that they put more pressure on the dog to get it right. This is akin to your boss saying that there is a new program and you need to know it well by the end of today or I'm not going to pay you this week. Then, what if something like that happened every week....how would you feel about the job? What about too much repetition? If you train past the point of drive satiation in the reward scheduling then yes, I believe that the dog will lose drive. But I often wonder, being my first dog, whether in some cases I would have been able to train him better and bring the drive out more had I known more at the time. Simple things such as ways to make training fun, not making it so regimented and classes going on F O R E V E R! The more I have broken down training, the more enthusiastic he has been. Bring him home from a training session and he is as quiet as a mouse. I often wonder the same thing. I wonder how much work I've created for both myself and my dog in overcoming early mistakes, and, have we really overcome them or is there more room for improvement? I guess time will tell. I do know however that she is much more engaged and much more confident in the training process and much more relaxed after a training session than she was in the early days. I see people who run agility courses over and over, yet never reward for it.... some then wonder why the dog is running so slow.... Yes, and what really bugs me about the above are those that don't reward, but also put more compulsion or force onto the dog or get frustrated and start yelling at the dog...what attitude is being classically conditioned into a dog about the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I "reckon",once you have a high drive dog, you never want anything else. Sort of, if you have seen it once, you know what you like. More often than not, they are the naughty ones, up to mischief, if not channelled correctly. I call them fun dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I "reckon",once you have a high drive dog, you never want anything else. Sort of, if you have seen it once, you know what you like. More often than not, they are the naughty ones, up to mischief, if not channelled correctly. I call them fun dogs. Boy, do I agree with this Lablover. Give me crazy high drive dog any day. The madder the better cos then you have a super action dog LOL. I guess it just depends on what different people want but I reckon you can channel a high drive dog but much harder to bring a low drive dog up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 Count me in on that one as well!! Watching some of the lower drive dogs at club, I know which I'd rather have... Mind you I'll probably pay for that comment, it'd be my luck my next dog will be a complete nutter! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I have a 10 month old "nutter" - he is so intense but get the clicker out or a toy and he's in heaven They are exhausting but a whole lot of fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 Totally agree!!! The nuttier the better. After having a moderate drive dog who still wants to work for *anything* but is nowhere near OTT, he is heaps of fun, but I love my high drive nutter for training - makes life interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
country joe Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I am with Erny and Tangwyn on this one. On balance I want the pack driven pup. If you have the right genetics they will come through with all the drive you want. Once you get past a certain drive the rest is wasted. In retrieving trials they give ten points for style eagerness and action after that its just wasted as its not a speed competition and more oppotunity fo rthings to go wrong. Speed is very different to drive. Persistance is different to drive. Slow to learn is different to drive. You need a balance between prey drive and pack drive. I have tried all the puppy testing, had the crazed retriever, (Zephie)now I look for the pup that gets under my feet. If the genetic base is there you will have a hard going pup anyway. country joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I "reckon",once you have a high drive dog, you never want anything else. Sort of, if you have seen it once, you know what you like. More often than not, they are the naughty ones, up to mischief, if not channelled correctly. I call them fun dogs. Nutbags, the lot of ya! Moderate drive BCs for me, the high drive is just not what I want (moderate for a BC is probably higher than high in other breeds tho). I do agree with the statement that it's easier to control drive than create it so low drive is not for me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I "reckon",once you have a high drive dog, you never want anything else. Sort of, if you have seen it once, you know what you like. More often than not, they are the naughty ones, up to mischief, if not channelled correctly. I call them fun dogs. Nutbags, the lot of ya! ;) Moderate drive BCs for me, the high drive is just not what I want (moderate for a BC is probably higher than high in other breeds tho). I do agree with the statement that it's easier to control drive than create it so low drive is not for me either. Where is your sense of adventure!?!?! I think i'd like a high drive BC one day (or a kelpie) just to *really* test myself!!!! I must admit - moderate to high drive dogs are the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I "reckon",once you have a high drive dog, you never want anything else. Sort of, if you have seen it once, you know what you like. More often than not, they are the naughty ones, up to mischief, if not channelled correctly. I call them fun dogs. Nutbags, the lot of ya! :p Moderate drive BCs for me, the high drive is just not what I want (moderate for a BC is probably higher than high in other breeds tho). I do agree with the statement that it's easier to control drive than create it so low drive is not for me either. Where is your sense of adventure!?!?! I think i'd like a high drive BC one day (or a kelpie) just to *really* test myself!!!! I must admit - moderate to high drive dogs are the best LP - do what I did and get a Dally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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