Low Drive Versus High Drive Dogs

[TangerineDream]

I think drive can also be encouraged or stifled, and I think a lot depends on the dog when I look at the dogs I have owned with just one common denominator...me..

Rhiannon (Dobe): low everything drive, reminded me of a teenager lurking around corners, but couldn't really be bothered joining in most times.

Tegan (Dobe): high prey drive (live animals not tennis balls - would break palings to get a rabbit on the other side of the fence), insanely high food drive.

Kai (Dobe - full brother to Tegan - chalk and cheese comes to mind with these two): Mr Cool...drive? what's drive?

Taryn (Dobe): I think I could only call her hyperactive as her drive was 'scattered' as was her attention

Cadence (GSP): moderate prey drive, high food drive, couch drive got higher as he got older, then the sunbaking drive kicked in

Tango (GSP): nicknamed "Mr Enthusiastic" by people who know him......"Drive? which drive would you like me to give you an example of mum, huh? huh??" high prey drive, high food drive, high everything drive...wears people out when they watch him...everything is approached at Warp speed unless strictly controlled. Can heel at triple pace when you are walking at normal pace and still be in the heel position

[Staranais]

I do imagine that you are talking about prey drive here. To me a dog that is willing to chase and capture an object is a high prey drive dog.

That's kind of what I think too, except how does that tie in with the idea of thresholds etc? My idea of a threshold is how much stimulation a dog needs before he goes into drive. So can you have a dog with high drive but a high threshold (doesn't easily go into drive but when he does he's very obsessive about the object?) or low drive and low threshold (goes into drive with little stimulation but just isn't that obsessive). Or does having a high drive always go with a low threshold to going into drive and vice versa?

Also how does the idea of drive tie in with nerves - what about dogs that are very high drive at home, but fall to pieces in unfamiliar environments, so you can't use that drive in any practical way? Do they still count as "high drive" dogs?

And can a dog have high prey drive for some things but not others - e.g dogs that kill livestock and small animals, but couldn't care less about toys. Is that just learning, that the dog hasn't learned that the toy is a prey object yet, or are some dogs just permanently different in how their drive is expressed and focused?

Interesting question, I look forward to the experts joining the thread, since I don't know much about this stuff yet.

[PAX]

Also how does the idea of drive tie in with nerves - what about dogs that are very high drive at home, but fall to pieces in unfamiliar environments, so you can't use that drive in any practical way? Do they still count as "high drive" dogs?

I think a high drive dog means it is always willing to go into drive under any circumstance, anywhere, anytime. Well thats my definition of high drive.

A low drive dog will easily be put off by it surrounds or other factors where as dog with high drive is so high in drive he/she wont notice the surrounds, the nervous handler, distractions, whatever.

[leopuppy04]

Interesting.

Another thought - while I think the dog has to naturally have the drive for food/pack/play/prey or whatever combination, I think the handler/trianer/owner also plays a big part in bringing this out. Many of the dogs at club that are in my class would be defined by their owners as 'low drive', but if I take them, they are bouncing to do some work etc . There are others with very competent handlers that just toss their nose up at what you have to offer.

If the dog has some natural drive, I think it is up to the handler to be creative and willing to try new things to bring out that drive etc.

For me - i've been very lucky with my dogs - both are reasonably high drive.... Leo less than Kinta, but the drive is still there, just expressed differently. I like my dogs to have a good 'drive' in different areas though - food, toys and pats etc.

I guess it is also about knowing your dog. Yours might be 'intense' on something, but because they are naturally calmer, won't express their drive for it like the livewires would

[Erny]

Just adding my 2 cents .....

I don't think it's just a matter of how eager a dog is for a particular motivator (ie food for food drive; play for play drive; etc) but also about how insistent the dog is for it.

For example - generally speaking my girl (since passed) had low drive in all but pack drive. She would go 'ape' for a tasty food treat, but if I made it too difficult (but by no means unattainably so) to achieve, she'd quit. The only thing she wouldn't quit on was pack drive. Admittedly, this made it very easy for me to maintain full and effective control - whether on lead or not.

I think we could all do well with more focus on pack drive.

ETA: Oops - didn't read every post and think that LP's post was expressing what I've said here?

Edited July 31, 2007 by Erny

[Benji's Mum]

They are very pack orientated, high defence drive, low prey drive, low food drive,low play

That sums up my chicken-friendly dogs perfectly. Very interesting.

[Vickie]

Somebody raised this question in an email to me the other day when I was going on about Ness being a low drive dog - quite frankly what got me thinking was they asked is she really and what makes her one?

Having given this question a bit of thought I am not totally convinced that she is so was wondering what characteristics people consider a low drive dog and on the other hand what makes a dog high drive.

Do you take into account the typical characteristics of any particular breed so what might be an average drive working breed might be a high drive compared to other breeds?

Are dogs high drive at some things but not others - so can you have a high drive obedience dog but a low drive agility dog for example?

Anybody got any thoughts?

I have lots of thoughts...just not sure how to put them into words.

Here's question though...if Ness arrived on your doorstep tomorrow as an 8 week old puppy again, do you think your perception of her drives in agility & obedience would be different after the same number of years of training?

The 2 of you have been through a lot with regards to training in both. I think your questions are really more relevant to how you undertook this journey, rather than any inherent drives she has.

[ness]

I guess my answer to that would be if she arrived on the doorstep as an 8 week old puppy what would I be looking for in an 8 week old puppy that would give me some indication of future potential in sports like obedience or agility (as just two examples but they could be replaced by anything one could dream up to do with the dog - herding if you wanted that as your chosen activity). Don't get me wrong I am not being critical of the dog I have just curious for future reference.

[Rom]

That's kind of what I think too, except how does that tie in with the idea of thresholds etc? My idea of a threshold is how much stimulation a dog needs before he goes into drive. So can you have a dog with high drive but a high threshold (doesn't easily go into drive but when he does he's very obsessive about the object?) or low drive and low threshold (goes into drive with little stimulation but just isn't that obsessive). Or does having a high drive always go with a low threshold to going into drive and vice versa?

I think thresholds can be manipulated too...isn't that basically part of what you do in both desensitisation and sensitisation work? I've got a handle on desensitisation, I still need to know more about sensitisation before I could answer this confidently.

Also how does the idea of drive tie in with nerves - what about dogs that are very high drive at home, but fall to pieces in unfamiliar environments, so you can't use that drive in any practical way? Do they still count as "high drive" dogs?

This would seem to be true of my dog. While she has good prey drive, it doesn't seem to be something that she can maintain in strange environments. I'm not fully convinced about it yet though because I'm such a novice at working with drives that I realise the possibility that there is something that I've missed in drive training. I know I could get the question answered if I knew what to ask

[Vickie]

I guess my answer to that would be if she arrived on the doorstep as an 8 week old puppy what would I be looking for in an 8 week old puppy that would give me some indication of future potential in sports like obedience or agility (as just two examples but they could be replaced by anything one could dream up to do with the dog - herding if you wanted that as your chosen activity). Don't get me wrong I am not being critical of the dog I have just curious for future reference.

OK I have just read the whole thread & see that many others have raised the point I was trying to make...that in dog sports, a lot of what your dogs drives appear to be is dependent on how you train. I am not saying that there are not different levels of drives in different dogs, but to compare a performance in agility vs obed. in the same dog, I think comes down to 2 things, how you have trained each & which may be more naturally rewarding for the dog.

I would say Trim & Noah are both high drive & Zeus moderately high, but all are extremely different dogs for agility. All are fast but I trained them differently & they are different dogs with different drives. High drive in the generic sense does not necessarily make a good sports dog (as evidenced by Noah ). If I had had the skills back then, who knows, maybe he would have been as successful as Zeus.

For future reference, I don't think you can see a lot in an 8 week old puppy that will give you the answers. That wasn't my point.

I think your best bet in choosing the right drives for dogs sports is to look for patterns that you like in related dogs. I don't think you need to analyse too much what those drives are made up of, because like it or not you will interfere with them.

Lots of people equate high drive/want a dog that you can drill all day & they will never give up, while I have this in Trim, my goal is not to use it, it is to train smarter, not harder. Noah in his day would chase swallows all day, he would never give up, yes it was high drive, but not a drive that was useful to me.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Vickie

[Lablover]

I do not know if my thoughts have any input to this thread but as I am housebound today........here I go.

I think once you have had a succesful dog which required very high drive, in my case to compete in retrieving trials, who breezed through obedience training....you learn to go backwards.

By this you know the level you want to achieve, so choosing a litter from proven performers becomes important. I can see a certain degree of potential greatness....when the pups are young. They either have it, or don't. That special spark. Goey types, inquisitive, bounce back from new experiences, active, outgoing, and ready to work.

With a 12 week old puppy, who eyes are maturing.....watching a football game with great intensity and when I cue them and give a reward.......they switch concentration to me. With eagerness and vigor.

Channelling desire is wonderful.

I remember seeing working baby kelpies, outside a sheep pen. Same look!!! Intense.

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 12, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[ness]

Well on clicking mad's description Ness would be considered a high drive not a low drive dog . OMG she would do anything for just 1 little bit of food. She would probably jump off a cliff if you asked for it.

[J...]

I agree Pax, was trying to write this down last night but got lost and gave up

The dog may get distracted easily, but what if it has a high drive but the handler has never learnt how to use it? Or never wanted to? Or maybe using the wrong drive for the dog?

What if the dog learns to direct that drive onto other things that aren't useful to the handler? I.e the dog places a higher value on playing with other dogs than working for its owner in class (how often do you see this in pet classes?).

I know Darcy was starting to head down this track quite badly as a 6 month old pup - to the extent that I pulled her out of the club we were in and started with another club. She wasn't allowed to play with other dogs at the new club, and is still rarely allowed. Lesson learnt (She plays with friends dogs and my parents dogs, just very rarely at training!)

Today I took her out the local soccer field with her favourite toy for some play and training... two strange dogs rocked up to check her out. She barely looked at them other than to get out of their way, all she wanted was the toy in my hands. ;)

So I would say she's a medium to high drive dog, I've learnt to work her in drive enough to get the results I need. I would say she'd be closer to high drive if I learnt more about drive when she was a young pup but I'll use that knowledge for when my next pup comes home... and I'll be looking for another high drive dog. I don't think I could deal with a low drive dog now ;) Mind you I could regret saying that later on.... :p

[leopuppy04]

... and I'll be looking for another high drive dog. I don't think I could deal with a low drive dog now Mind you I could regret saying that later on.... :p

I agree - I thought I wanted a nice laid back dog when I got Leo and boy was I wrong! He is still a 'go get 'em ' dog - nothing I would consider inactive or 'low drive' - he has tonnes of that, but sometimes you need to work for it ;) After getting Kinta though, she is so much like my old Kelpie girl that I didn't know I missed that type of behaviour so much! I love the 'feralness' of her ;) - although it is frustrating at times (read: ripping up bedding, digging holes.... )....

Although Leo is everything I asked for at the time, I don't think I could go another dog with 'lower' drive or activity than him, and like I said - he isn't a lazy bum!

Lets just say - 'I like 'em nutty and feral with an evil glint in their eye'!!! :) :p

Ok -now I hear you all saying 'sucker for punishment' - :p :rofl:

[Tonymc]

I love full on high drive Dogs,whether its a Stumpy,BC,Kelpie,hunting dog,Heeler or American Bulldog.much easier to harness and channel the high drive than trying to create drive.All the high drive Dogs I have had of course have higher thresholds and much better nerves. Tony

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 12, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[jesomil]

I had never experienced such high drives till i got my Kelpie. When he sees his prey item, the rest of the world is blacked out, nothing else exists and he will do anything to get it. You could shoot a gun over his head and i dont think he would loose focus.

He is so fast and easy to get high level of motivation in training but I think my medium drive dog was easier to train in obedience as she loved her food and toy but wasnt quite so full on about it. Her drives were easier to mange as she was a little slower and more controlled. By the way, i am not complaining, i wouldnt swap high drives for anything!!

I was amused one day to see 3 entire males all glued to a little hole in the sheep fencing that they could see through. They were all standing on top of each other but didnt notice as they were watching their sheep. It was amazing because in any other situation, males would have been getting all blokey and toey with each other, but because they have such high drives, they didnt even know the other dogs were there.

Has that story any relevance to the thread......... I dont know

[Kelpie-i]

Drives.....those complicated yet exciting behaviours that dogs have and are the difference between a highly trainable and a not so highly trainable dog, depending on what you are wanting to achieve of course!!

Someone from this forum once PM'd me a very interesting article on Drives and Modes. I cannot remember the entire thing as it was almost 20 pages long and this was about a year go when I read it, but it basically stated that there are only 3 main drives in a dog: Pack, Prey and Defence. What we term as food, toy or fight drive are actually "Modes of Drives". These Modes will only occur through shaping or training the dog to want/enjoy them.

This means that whilst you may have a dog who has high prey drive, it may not necessarily chase a ball- well this is how I understood it.

Personally, I love a dog who drives for anything which is why I chose Kelpies.....little buggers will stop at nothing to play tug, chase a frisbee, work sheep, take treats or play fetch - how do they do find the time to take an afternoon nap?

High drive or high mode? These are behaviours that I instilled in them as pups and taught them to enjoy. I wanted them to do all these things so I used their naturally high drives to create the modes.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Lablover]

I love full on high drive Dogs,whether its a Stumpy,BC,Kelpie,hunting dog,Heeler or American Bulldog.much easier to harness and channel the high drive than trying to create drive.All the high drive Dogs I have had of course have higher thresholds and much better nerves. Tony

Tonymc,

What do you do with your dogs? Do you compete?