Breaking Rank/pack Order

[Mushaka]

My dogs NEVER share bones either NOR balls...NEVER EVER..!!!

Not worth the drama. My 3 are fed seperately anyway cause of the age differences,they r all on different diets! I practise a smaller version of the triangle at EVERY meal time as well.

theres something ive wnted to know for ages....

wat the heck is "BUMP"????

[Mushaka]

hey thanx red mal... Think its time to call in a professional... I want peace love and harmony. I certainly dont want puppy Indie picking up on any of these shinannigins..

[Red Mal]

Thanx RedMal..u answered my question..the old girl is losing her touch lol...

She still has a bad attitude though lol..

God love her!

P.s. The cheeky mexican is on at 1pm on Bio ..HHmmmmm!! MEXICANNNNNNNN

You thanked me before I answered you ! Are you Psychic ? :D

OOh, I watched 'el cheeky mexicano boy' today TWICE on a double episode

[jesomil]

What does the spunky mexican say about all this? I have heard him say that he is number 1 and his pack members are all number 2. I bet there are no rank fights in his huge pack!!

It is what it is and without seeing it for yourself,

Ohh, i have seen it many, many times but it simply is not allowed in my pack, thats all.

[Red Mal]

I have no advice for you, but be aware that when two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. Bitch fights are bad news, I have had two fights between bitches and it's not something I wish to experience again. Dogs usually make a lot of noise and you may get a few minor wounds, but they are usually relatively easy to separate in comparison to bitches who will inflict major damage and will sometimes fight to the death. You may have to separate these girls permanently, although I'm not saying that this is a problem that has no solution if they were my girls I probably wouldn't trust them together again, especially unsupervised. BTW I don't allow any dogs of mine to share bones, bones are high value items and can provoke a fight even between dogs who are the greatest of friends, all my dogs are fed separately and kept apart when they have bones.

Totally agree with this. Bitches are far worse and will fight to the death. I often describe Dogs like drunken blokes.......they have a skinful, have a scuffle, then a pat on the back and 'mates' again :D Bitches are like women.....need I say more

hey thanx red mal... Think its time to call in a professional... I want peace love and harmony. I certainly dont want puppy Indie picking up on any of these shinannigins..

No probs. and BUMP means bumping the topic back to the top so someone will see it and answer

Jesomil, I have no desire to argue with you, I am offering advice of experience to someone who clearly has a hierarchial problem within her pack. If you have no problem in that area, I don't see the reason to say to them that it doesn't exist, that's all. They clearly see the problem and are asking for advice.

As for Cesar Milan, yes he does have hierarchial problems within his pack, as demontrated once when he was explaining about feeding his 'top dogs' on a higher bench and his 'lower dogs' on the ground below. Anyone who knows about Canine behaviour understands these issues can and do arise.

As for saying you've seen it many times, .....in your previous post you said, you're not sure it exists !!!

Posted by Jesomil

Whether they have their own heirarchy, i am not sure.

Posted by Jesomil

Ohh, i have seen it many, many times but it simply is not allowed in my pack, thats all.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Red Mal

[jesomil]

Jesomil, I have no desire to argue with you, I am offering advice of experience to someone who clearly has a hierarchial problem within her pack. If you have no problem in that area, I don't see the reason to say to them that it doesn't exist, that's all. They clearly see the problem and are asking for advice.

As for Cesar Milan, yes he does have hierarchial problems within his pack, as demontrated once when he was explaining about feeding his 'top dogs' on a higher bench and his 'lower dogs' on the ground below. Anyone who knows about Canine behaviour understands these issues can and do arise.

As for saying you've seen it many times, .....in your previous post you said, you're not sure it exists !!!

Heck, there is no argueing going on!! We simply have different experiences, that all. I am here to learn just like everyone and am merely putting across an opinion.

I find this whole area of thought very interesting. Whether my own dogs have a set heirarchy, i am not sure, but i have certainly seen it with other peoples dogs and i think it had to do with the owners management of the dogs. I may be right, i may be worng.

I would think it had more to do with the owner, you think it has more to do with management of the heirarchy. Thats ok, we have different ideas based purely on our own experiences and i for one am happy to learn more.

Where are the gurus when we need them!!

[Red Mal]

I'm sure in many cases the problems arise from the owner yes, I agree. I've seen terrible owners who's dogs run roughshod over them and the owners are at a loss as to what to do.

However, I think certainly some breeds are more predisposed to forming instinctual traits that cannot be helped, so therefore the owner needs to 'manage' this very carefully.

There are also very strong willed dogs and some that are born submissive without a care in the world happy to let everyone take over them. But then if we all had dogs like that, it would be very boring IMO :D

[jesomil]

QUOTE

Posted by Jesomil

Whether they have their own heirarchy, i am not sure.

QUOTE

Posted by Jesomil

Ohh, i have seen it many, many times but it simply is not allowed in my pack, thats all.

Ok, i will clarify for you as i must have come across in a confusing manner :D

Whether my own dogs have their own heirarchy, i am not sure. I am a pretty strong leader and never allow any shananigans so therefore i dont ever see any signs of one bossing the other etc. They all seem pretty equal.

I have seen plenty of other people having probs with their dogs pack order and certainly see others allowing a dog to stand over another etc.

Hope i have cleared things up for you

[Mushaka]

45 mins till my date with the mexican...I see Cesar playing ball with his dogs..i couldnt do that with mine without there being a fight!!

[Mushaka]

oh,..and TY for clearing the bump thing up for me..Lol..

im gna add "and grind" everytime i see it..just for sh#ts and giggles rofl

[Red Mal]

oh,..and TY for clearing the bump thing up for me..Lol..

im gna add "and grind" everytime i see it..just for sh#ts and giggles rofl

:D and no doubt thinking of 'ole lil mexican' while you type it

[Red Mal]

Ok, i will clarify for you as i must have come across in a confusing manner

Whether my own dogs have their own heirarchy, i am not sure. I am a pretty strong leader and never allow any shananigans so therefore i dont ever see any signs of one bossing the other etc. They all seem pretty equal.

I have seen plenty of other people having probs with their dogs pack order and certainly see others allowing a dog to stand over another etc. Hope i have cleared things up for you

I understand what you mean, I was just trying to explain that by you saying you are a strong leader (and threfore you don't have this problem), you could make others feel like they are failing in the role, because they obviously have a problem which must mean (to them) that they aren't strong leaders, which isn't the case.

Anyone, even the strongest leaders somtimes have this issue, because not all dogs are the same, and some are more challenging than others. I am a very strong leader and can sort my own and other people's dogs just fine, it doesn't mean that 1 dog will still not try to challenge. Some are stronger than others psychologically and left to their own devices, they would be an Alpha.

Jesomil, Just didn't want anyone to feel like it's their fault, as it's not always the case

I currently have a dominance issue with a 3 year old, who suddenly thinks he can start challenging my husband again :D Unfortunately, my husband has these issues (not me), because I am a stronger leader than him and he's my Bitch

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Righto, your Bitch is at a 'tetchy' age where she will be trying new things because of her hormonal changes (usually at 16 -20 months roughly) She will be 'testing' to see if she can overpower your Mastiff, as she is also a Bitch. The fact that your Mastiff isn't at the top of the 'Dog pack' doesn't matter, all dogs start from the bottom and have to work their way up. She will challenge every so often and see if the Mastiff is willing to move over. If the Mastiff did move over, she would then step in and try challenging the next in the hierarchy. You did the right thing by stepping in. All dogs should be under you at home and it's a good thing they are in your house, but if you like the pack a certain way (i.e the the Mutt, the Mastiff, then the Sibe) then keep things that way. Let her know that her behaviour is not appropriate.

You say they were sharing a bone together. Were they sharing or were they both adamant that neither was leaving it first ?(there's a difference). Who had it first ? In this instance I would have taken the bone away from the Sibe and given it to the Mast, or if the Mast had it first, tell the Sibe, she was not allowed to join in. The fact that you were there watching probably deferred a fight for the 'trophy'. It only has to be one little thing, then the sibe has a feather under her cap, her confidence would grow, so she would look for someting else to challenge.

I agree, about not letting them in the bed, but then again mine aren't allowed in the bedROOM, that is MY room, and I am Alpha, and I say where they are allowed to sleep, which at best, is outside the door.

Just keep an eye on them, when feeding, always feed them in order of hierarchy (Sibe last) etc, and let her know through your actions that her place is at the bottom where she began.

I often say let dogs work it out themselves, but not when there is already a happy hierarchy in place and a dog is trying to 'move up'.

I hope this is helpful, and I'm sorry for referring to your dogs by breed (I feel so rude), but I don't know their names

If you are still having problems and want to ask anything, feel free, I'm happy to help. I've had 6 Mals here before now, and successfully integrated short term fosters etc and holiday dogs, all Mals, and have only had 2 incidents in that time (not nice to experience though ) although that was at the very beginning when I was still learning myself

let me know how you get on

Shes always testing the water so to speak.

To the bone. The Mastiff had was chewing on it and then the sibe came over and laid next to her. Didnt take it nor did she chew on it at the time. The madtiff stopped chewing sibe took it when mastiff got up and left. When I meant sharing I dont mean they where chewing on it togther..sorry for the confussion. But sharing is letting the other have it at all. Normally whats theirs is theirs even when their not chewing on it.

ETA: Dont feel rude. I have only told what breed each dog is and not their names. I figured it would be easyer and I'd save time on ppl asking what breeds and size differents ect. :cool:

I have no advice for you, but be aware that when two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. Bitch fights are bad news, I have had two fights between bitches and it's not something I wish to experience again. Dogs usually make a lot of noise and you may get a few minor wounds, but they are usually relatively easy to separate in comparison to bitches who will inflict major damage and will sometimes fight to the death. You may have to separate these girls permanently, although I'm not saying that this is a problem that has no solution if they were my girls I probably wouldn't trust them together again, especially unsupervised. BTW I don't allow any dogs of mine to share bones, bones are high value items and can provoke a fight even between dogs who are the greatest of friends, all my dogs are fed separately and kept apart when they have bones.

I also agree with everyone else, no breed of dog is able to lock its jaws.

I dont allow mine to eat bones around each other either I think I said I dont know how they found it but they did..and if I didnt I meant to type it

TO the lock jaw thing. I was told dogs that bite down and dont release unless pried open/off other dog is called lock jaw and that is what sibes and mastiff among other breeds have...I was told this by a trainer so I assumed it was correct.

I'm sure in many cases the problems arise from the owner yes, I agree. I've seen terrible owners who's dogs run roughshod over them and the owners are at a loss as to what to do.

However, I think certainly some breeds are more predisposed to forming instinctual traits that cannot be helped, so therefore the owner needs to 'manage' this very carefully.

There are also very strong willed dogs and some that are born submissive without a care in the world happy to let everyone take over them. But then if we all had dogs like that, it would be very boring IMO

I am not lacking in my stance. I have made clear to ALL of my dogs I WILL and CAN take them down and will do so if I am challenged. In this case IMO I am not sending mix messages. I have recongnized how they have worked out thier 'ranks' and I feed in that order. I stop all fights and put boith dogs down. I have done my best in letting them ALL know I will not deal with fighting. I just about all cases they have stopped the second I raised my voice and towerd over.

My top ranking dogs will NEVER be happy nor deal with being equal. I have dealt with the old girl stepping down and the next dog (the mutt) stepping it up. The sibe has NEVER been submissive to any dog that cant overpower her. Its just not 'her' and I have worked VERY hard in dealing with her. She also has some other issues that I have worked hard to manged because I realized I can not get fix them all because well some are just part of the package...but I have/am working very hard to 'work with them' and stop things before they start. I have spent much time learning her like the back of my hand. Just by looking at her i can tell you what she is thinking and what shes about to do. I have worked hard to know everything about her. I have worked even hard to make her understand I am 'god' infact I am basically the only person she will listen to.

But to add to the drama and the reason that I dont think its me being a 'lesser alpha': The sibe is in heat ( shes been in heat 2 times before and has never had an attuide..infact the last times she was soooooooo mellow) the Masiff is 7ish which is getting way up there in mastiff yrs...I think they live till 8-10 yrs.. SO I was thinking mastiff did start this hailey being in season challenge her back and now its its grown into a fight over ranks. I havent done anything different then I have been and no fights like this has ever happend before which lead me to beliveing its somthing bigger then me not being a storng alpha. I could be VERY wrong and am opend to ppl telling me so. But I thoughtd I just add in my thoughts

Thankyou to all who have give advice and info. And thank you RedMal I might be takening you up on the PM offer

Also they have been apart for awhole day now. Should I keep em apart till the sibe comes out of heat? Or put on her greyhound muzzle and allow them to be together and make clear I want no fights (The sibe will latch on the mastiff will stop before she acts. The muzzle will prevent the sibe from biting and give me an extra second to put an end to things without teeth coming in play)

Edited July 30, 2007 by my_sibe_owns_me

[BJean]

Also they have been apart for awhole day now. Should I keep em apart till the sibe comes out of heat? Or put on her greyhound muzzle and allow them to be together and make clear I want no fights (The sibe will latch on the mastiff will stop before she acts. The muzzle will prevent the sibe from biting and give me an extra second to put an end to things without teeth coming in play)

my_sibe_owns_me

I don't think you being the number one in the household (pack) means that there will be no fights between other members of lower rank.

Nor do I think that if they fight in front of you, it is a sign of disrespect.

They have a dispute between themselves - with some dogs you cannot sort this out for them - nor control when they will have fights IF there is a dispute between them - particularly between bitches.

Permanent separation may be the only solution here.

Edited July 30, 2007 by lilli

[Mushaka]

and redmal yes there will be mexican on the mind hehehehe

[Staff'n'Toller]

Miranda's and Lilli's have been the most common-sense replies I have read so far.

I won't be offering training advice because in all seriousness- I wouldn't come near your case with a 10 foot pole- on the internet.

You have a massively dangerous situation going on and you absolutely shouldn't be giving your 'pack' items of value until you get someone to come and assess your situation. What you think is 'sharing' is power playing, you are obviously not reading the signs and body language. You also may not be dealing with the precursors well enough. Pinning your dogs after the fight has started is worthless- it's way, way too late by then, this fight could have been building for quite some time before it got to fight stage, and you will find that your Sibe (if in fact she is the one challenging) is showing signs all day - every day of her intentions. By pinning them down you also become involved in that fight, you are joining in...nothing about that says 'boss' to dogs.

You may think you're the leader, but how the dogs perceive it can be totally different, you need to go read some studies on DOG behaviour not WOLF behaviour.

This one is basic but would be a good start.

Pack order is fluid in domestic dogs, my Toller owns all the tennis balls, no-one challenges my old Bully girl for the best bed...

I think you need Behaviourist advice rather than trainer advice, but I have no idea of who you should seek out being overseas.

Mel.

[Red Mal]

my_sibe_owns_me, please feel free to PM if you like, I'm only on at certain times, because of the time difference, but feel free if you wish

I have to say I agree with Staff'n'Toller in the main, as this could be a potentially dangerous situation and by pinning them down, yes, you are joining in, not preventing the situation. If your Mast is ageing, the sibe will be feeling this and with the sibe being in season, yes her hormones will be deciding what she does.

I don't say that dogs behave the same as Wolves, because of domesticity, except in certain cases, where certain traits coming through are classic wolf behaviour. Again, as I said previously, this is more noticeable in certain breeds of dogs, the spitz breeds mainly, but often others too, after all they are all Canin Lupis.

I too don't know of any behaviourists in your area, being overseas, but I would seek someone out and ask advice as there's only so much you can convey through a keyboard without actually seeing the dogs behaviour.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

So if pinnning the dog after the fight makes me part of the fight them wouldnt me also parting them make me part of the fight? IF I dont end the fight then one of them will kill the other one. Therefore I am part of the fight either way I look at it....So now that im part of the fight what do I do?

Sadly, I only know one person with enough dog knowllege to help me here. BUT I can never get a hold of her. The only other 'doggy' trainers around are barkbusters.....and they wont do any good.

Thanks for the website I will have a look at it.

Just to clear up the bone thing again- I did not give them the bone. I never give bones out to dogs in the same room. I have no idea how they got it all I know is if I was to take it a figh may have very well have started. As said the sharing wasnt chewing on it together.

lilli- Permanent separation... with the whole 'pack' or just the other bitch?

[Red Mal]

OK, parting a fight is not being part of it, you are saying their behaviour is unnacceptable.

Once the fight is over, and THEN you pin down, that is effectively challenging them.

When you separate, NEVER shout. You needn't speak at all, it's inefective. Just part dogs, and walk away. You need to keep a closer eye on your sibe and watch her behaviour, as someone said before, you may just be missing little things she does.

As the Alpha, you need to lead by example and overpower them mentally.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

OK, parting a fight is not being part of it, you are saying their behaviour is unnacceptable.

Once the fight is over, and THEN you pin down, that is effectively challenging them.

When you separate, NEVER shout. You needn't speak at all, it's inefective. Just part dogs, and walk away. You need to keep a closer eye on your sibe and watch her behaviour, as someone said before, you may just be missing little things she does.

As the Alpha, you need to lead by example and overpower them mentally.

Okay so no talking and no pinning got it.

I do watch the sibe. She is a bully. She is always testing the others. I dont normally miss a cue( while I am watching) because I say 'leave it'/ 'knock it off'/'no' when I know shes going to start something. When I give her the comand she gives me eye contact and I hold it till she looks away and then she walks away. These ones just happen to happen when I wasnt watching/looking at the dogs. I had issues with her when she was a puppy which is the reason I am confident in saying I know her 'cues'. I was told when she was young to watch her closly, learn her like the back of my hand and stop her when she thinks about it before she gets the chance to do it because it was useless to try and correct her after it happend. Since then I have been able to end many things before they got to this level.

Can I have exsamples of overpowering my dogs mentally? I understand but I dont know how