Breaking Rank/pack Order

[my_sibe_owns_me]

I AM the alpha bitch to all the dogs in my house. BUT with that said we do have a pack. Our one mutt is alpha bitch(after me of course) and my mastiff is beta...then comes hailey and then the rest....

Heres the issue:

The yesterday the mastiff and sibe came running down the stairs together. The mastiff growled at the sibe and well this time she(the sibe) desided to break rank (which never happens she always backs down) so....the sibe latched onto the mastiff and the mastiff screams an I rush over to end it...No blood this time. But some broken egos..so I pulled hailey away(after a lot of work sibes have 'lock jaw' as do mastiffs) by her rough and her front feet off the ground (still wanting to go after the other dog) and put her to the ground (I dont know if this right all I know is I needed her off her feet and her head under my control) I then pinned her up for awhile because she had 'the look' later on they where fine! Somehow they found a bone and where lying side by side sharing the bone Neither of them share! I would have gott'n the bone right that second BUT I KNEW if I went over there to take it there would be a fight so I let it be and watched closly...both seemed very relaxed not caring at all....This is till they both wanted the new water that I put in the dish and they started to so show teeth over who was going to drink first...I yelled 'NO' and stepped between (they wouldnt dare bite me they know their chances arent good if they pick a fight with me) and both stopped but watched each other..They where fine with in a few mins they even eat this morning by each other this morning and no tiffs ( i wouldnt have fed them together but sis does the morning feeding and I forgot to fill her in) But all was fine they stayed in the same room while I was at work and no marks on either and ppl where home all day and would have heard if somthing was going on). BUT later in the day somehow another 'fight' broke out ( i dont know how it happend or who start'd it..All I did was turn my back for a min...) SO now the mastiff has a small hole (just surface) from me pulling hailey off her...way harder to get her off this time.....so ATM shes wearing a greyhound muzzle and both are being yelled at for any stairing....and neither are in the same room anymore.

So what do I do? How do I fix it?

I am deeply thankful for any advice or info.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Bump...:D

[Mushaka]

Having similar issues.. Will be watching this thread with much interest.

[centitout]

i am having the same problem with the 2 bloodhound girls,the previously more dominant 1 is now getting shafted from sleeping areas and the other girl is pushing ahead when i go to feed bronte.i think sometimes you have to let them work it out-=who you think should be top dog is not always who it should be in the dogs eyes.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

i am having the same problem with the 2 bloodhound girls,the previously more dominant 1 is now getting shafted from sleeping areas and the other girl is pushing ahead when i go to feed bronte.i think sometimes you have to let them work it out-=who you think should be top dog is not always who it should be in the dogs eyes.

I could deal with pushing...But I cant deal with fighting. My two will kill eachother before the other will step down..... :D

[Red Mal]

How old is your sibe ? Is she reaching adolesent age ? Where do they all sleep ? Is your Masty a dog or a bitch ?

Not being nosey, but it helps if I know these things, sometimes just one thing can be the result :D

[my_sibe_owns_me]

How old is your sibe ? Is she reaching adolesent age ? Where do they all sleep ? Is your Masty a dog or a bitch ?

Not being nosey, but it helps if I know these things, sometimes just one thing can be the result

I dont mind I will answer any questions that will help.

The sibe is 19-20 mos...she'll be two this Dec. She's always been the 'bully'

They sleep in the bed with me most of the time :D But latly they have their dog beds and sleep on the floor next to the bed 9around the area of the bed). Since this has been happening I havent allowd any of them in the bed.

The mastiff is a bitch.

[Red Mal]

How old is your sibe ? Is she reaching adolesent age ? Where do they all sleep ? Is your Masty a dog or a bitch ?

Not being nosey, but it helps if I know these things, sometimes just one thing can be the result

I dont mind I will answer any questions that will help.

The sibe is 19-20 mos...she'll be two this Dec. She's always been the 'bully'

They sleep in the bed with me most of the time But latly they have their dog beds and sleep on the floor next to the bed 9around the area of the bed). Since this has been happening I havent allowd any of them in the bed.

The mastiff is a bitch.

Righto, your Bitch is at a 'tetchy' age where she will be trying new things because of her hormonal changes (usually at 16 -20 months roughly) She will be 'testing' to see if she can overpower your Mastiff, as she is also a Bitch. The fact that your Mastiff isn't at the top of the 'Dog pack' doesn't matter, all dogs start from the bottom and have to work their way up. She will challenge every so often and see if the Mastiff is willing to move over. If the Mastiff did move over, she would then step in and try challenging the next in the hierarchy. You did the right thing by stepping in. All dogs should be under you at home and it's a good thing they are in your house, but if you like the pack a certain way (i.e the the Mutt, the Mastiff, then the Sibe) then keep things that way. Let her know that her behaviour is not appropriate.

You say they were sharing a bone together. Were they sharing or were they both adamant that neither was leaving it first ?(there's a difference). Who had it first ? In this instance I would have taken the bone away from the Sibe and given it to the Mast, or if the Mast had it first, tell the Sibe, she was not allowed to join in. The fact that you were there watching probably deferred a fight for the 'trophy'. It only has to be one little thing, then the sibe has a feather under her cap, her confidence would grow, so she would look for someting else to challenge.

I agree, about not letting them in the bed, but then again mine aren't allowed in the bedROOM, that is MY room, and I am Alpha, and I say where they are allowed to sleep, which at best, is outside the door.

Just keep an eye on them, when feeding, always feed them in order of hierarchy (Sibe last) etc, and let her know through your actions that her place is at the bottom where she began.

I often say let dogs work it out themselves, but not when there is already a happy hierarchy in place and a dog is trying to 'move up'.

I hope this is helpful, and I'm sorry for referring to your dogs by breed (I feel so rude), but I don't know their names

If you are still having problems and want to ask anything, feel free, I'm happy to help. I've had 6 Mals here before now, and successfully integrated short term fosters etc and holiday dogs, all Mals, and have only had 2 incidents in that time (not nice to experience though ) although that was at the very beginning when I was still learning myself :D

let me know how you get on

[jesomil]

Well, i have been waiting for one of the "guru's" to answer but they havent just yet so i will throw in my observation be it right or wrong.

I think you are not being a good, strong leader and i would be working on leadership with them both. They should not be fighting and especially not fighting in front of you. They dont sound like they have enough respect for you.

I would also not try to identify heirarchy because it changes alot and i doubt that we mere humans could pick up all the little signs.

My dogs are all treated equal, they are all bottom of the pack in my eyes and they know it and are secure in it.

Fighting is completely unacceptable at all times so i think you should get the help of a professional who can work with you.

[PAX]

Jesomil,

I agree and would also like to add Dogs do not have 'lock jaw' (unless they have tetanus), it's an old wives tale. :D

[Red Mal]

Well, i have been waiting for one of the "guru's" to answer but they havent just yet so i will throw in my observation be it right or wrong.

I think you are not being a good, strong leader and i would be working on leadership with them both. They should not be fighting and especially not fighting in front of you. They dont sound like they have enough respect for you.

I would also not try to identify heirarchy because it changes alot and i doubt that we mere humans could pick up all the little signs.

My dogs are all treated equal, they are all bottom of the pack in my eyes and they know it and are secure in it.

Fighting is completely unacceptable at all times so i think you should get the help of a professional who can work with you.

I agree fighting in front of the Alpha, means their respect has lessened somewhat.

Many households have numerous dogs with no hierarchy problem and all dogs are happy to be equal. However, where you have a house with a few dogs and there is clearly already a hierarchial system in place between themselves, as the Alpha it's your job to sustain that hierarchy for the safety and sanity of the dogs. Many fights break out because the Alpha sends off confusing signals to the pack and they are all confused about where they should be. Hierarchy within the home with a few dogs should not change unless you want it to change or allow it to change. This never happens in wild packs of wolves or dogs, unless an older dog is dying or ill and needs replacing etc. Apart from that Hierarchy doesn't change and Alpha dog and Alpha Bitch remain that way for many years.

[Red Mal]

Re the 'Lock Jaw' I agree, it's a myth in any breed :D

[Mushaka]

I agree with pax and redmal...NO LOCK JAW...!

[jesomil]

Hierarchy within the home with a few dogs should not change unless you want it to change or allow it to change.

The way i understand it, it does change and there are many factors that can cause a change.

I dont know about others, but i have never really been able to identify "pack order" in my dogs.

as the Alpha it's your job to sustain that hierarchy for the safety and sanity of the dogs. Many fights break out because the Alpha sends off confusing signals to the pack and they are all confused about where they should be.

Not sure about us humans sustaining heirarchy..... but i could be wrong :D I believe the owner is the leader and the others are the followers. Whether they have their own heirarchy, i am not sure.

Oh, and i forgot to add before about the lock jaw. Such an old wives tale and one i havent heard in ages.

[Mushaka]

my 6yr old Staffy is now tryin his best to take over my old Staffy x bitch who has been TOP DOG forever. Is it natural for a younger dog to try to take over from an aged and mainly infirm dog...luckily my dogs have NEVER been allowed to bite EVER and so when they fight its just spit and sound if u know what i mean?

They KNOW im boss..as soon as i walk to where the fight is they split without me saying a word...I find it more annoying than worrying...just watchin what they r doin all the time. Im more concerned that they will knock over or accidently hurt one of the kids when they carry on like "tools".

I just dnt know what to do...??

Ive even gone so far ass to Let the old dog on the lounge to reinforce her top dog status..Probably not the best idea..but im runnin out of ideas(limited brain capacity :D )

[Red Mal]

Hierarchy within the home with a few dogs should not change unless you want it to change or allow it to change.

The way i understand it, it does change and there are many factors that can cause a change.

I dont know about others, but i have never really been able to identify "pack order" in my dogs.

Yes, as I said in my previous post, many people I've known have had many dogs, with no clear hierarchy, they have all been happy to be equal. Som dogs and/or breeds are happy with this and see no reason to seek status. There may be no hierarchyial system within your dogs and if they are happy that way you are one of the lucky ones, that does not have this problem.

The factors causing a change in this are usually down to a breakdown in communication from Alpha or age or illnesses of other dogs etc. I'm not saying they never happen, as I said previously, without these factors, it's usually down to confusing messages from the Alpha (Owner).

as the Alpha it's your job to sustain that hierarchy for the safety and sanity of the dogs. Many fights break out because the Alpha sends off confusing signals to the pack and they are all confused about where they should be.

Not sure about us humans sustaining heirarchy..... but i could be wrong :D I believe the owner is the leader and the others are the followers. Whether they have their own heirarchy, i am not sure.

If you had been in my house when feeding time comes when I've had a few dogs in, you would see the hierarchy speak for itself. It is what it is and without seeing it for yourself, how can you say it does not exist ?

[jesomil]

how can you say it does not exist ?

I didnt, i said this

, i am not sure.

:D

[Mushaka]

Thanx RedMal..u answered my question..the old girl is losing her touch lol...

She still has a bad attitude though lol..

God love her!

P.s. The cheeky mexican is on at 1pm on Bio ..HHmmmmm!! MEXICANNNNNNNN

[Miranda]

I have no advice for you, but be aware that when two bitches take a dislike to each other you have a major problem. Bitch fights are bad news, I have had two fights between bitches and it's not something I wish to experience again. Dogs usually make a lot of noise and you may get a few minor wounds, but they are usually relatively easy to separate in comparison to bitches who will inflict major damage and will sometimes fight to the death. You may have to separate these girls permanently, although I'm not saying that this is a problem that has no solution if they were my girls I probably wouldn't trust them together again, especially unsupervised. BTW I don't allow any dogs of mine to share bones, bones are high value items and can provoke a fight even between dogs who are the greatest of friends, all my dogs are fed separately and kept apart when they have bones.

I also agree with everyone else, no breed of dog is able to lock its jaws.

[Red Mal]

my 6yr old Staffy is now tryin his best to take over my old Staffy x bitch who has been TOP DOG forever. Is it natural for a younger dog to try to take over from an aged and mainly infirm dog...luckily my dogs have NEVER been allowed to bite EVER and so when they fight its just spit and sound if u know what i mean?

They KNOW im boss..as soon as i walk to where the fight is they split without me saying a word...I find it more annoying than worrying...just watchin what they r doin all the time. Im more concerned that they will knock over or accidently hurt one of the kids when they carry on like "tools".

I just dnt know what to do...??

Ive even gone so far ass to Let the old dog on the lounge to reinforce her top dog status..Probably not the best idea..but im runnin out of ideas(limited brain capacity :D )

If it were a younger dog, I would do the same in reinforcing her status, however if she is elderly and infirm, your younger dog is picking up on this and will try to challenge for the position. All I would suggest is to continue what you are doing with caution, or keep your elderly dog out of harms way. Your younger dog will may feel worried that the older one is not capable of taking care of things and this can cause other problems if you are reinforcing her position. he will then worry that you are in fact not capable of being Alpha as you are allowing an infirm dog to remain at the top. I know someone who once had this dilemma and she swapped their positions gradually, so the older dog was under the younger dog, but it was done with great caution and very slowly.

Hope this helps