Constant Touching And Other Small Issues

[bret]

hi everyone, i have 2 or 3 quick questions, that could possibly turn into longer ones, but i will be brief with the opening post.

1) my BC is the most affectionate dog i have ever met, i mean AFFECTIONATE. her training when i get a chance really goes awesome, she picks up things quicker than i expected. But her constant need for touching is sometimes incredibly annoying. I have trained her in sit stay and down stay, when I am training her she will stay for how ever long i want, but lets just say at night which is mainly the worst time, we are watching a movie, she is on her mat watching with us, she constantly has to be touched or patted, she will go lie down and in like 30 secs she will creep up thinking we can't see her move and put her nose on your leg for a pat. I won't pat her unless i call her over, and i put her back on the mat if she moves, but i can't seem to have her stay still.

2) surging when walking. i take her for a walk every day, now she isnt a puller like 'i need to run let me go' pulling, but she does tend to surge. i have tried every trick under the sun. i stop, i turn, i take treats so that when she is doing the right thing i treat her, i have tried the 'slow'-correction, and when i say slow she instantly looks at me and slows down, but 2 seconds later she surges again. I don't need comepition heeling, which she is also learning, but without that treat in my hand, i have to constantly tell her to slow down, instead i want her to stay close and then when i release her 'ok' she can walk at her leasure a little more.

any help would be greatly apprectiated.

cheers

bret

[Anissa]

hi everyone, i have 2 or 3 quick questions, that could possibly turn into longer ones, but i will be brief with the opening post.

1) my BC is the most affectionate dog i have ever met, i mean AFFECTIONATE. her training when i get a chance really goes awesome, she picks up things quicker than i expected. But her constant need for touching is sometimes incredibly annoying. I have trained her in sit stay and down stay, when I am training her she will stay for how ever long i want, but lets just say at night which is mainly the worst time, we are watching a movie, she is on her mat watching with us, she constantly has to be touched or patted, she will go lie down and in like 30 secs she will creep up thinking we can't see her move and put her nose on your leg for a pat. I won't pat her unless i call her over, and i put her back on the mat if she moves, but i can't seem to have her stay still.

2) surging when walking. i take her for a walk every day, now she isnt a puller like 'i need to run let me go' pulling, but she does tend to surge. i have tried every trick under the sun. i stop, i turn, i take treats so that when she is doing the right thing i treat her, i have tried the 'slow'-correction, and when i say slow she instantly looks at me and slows down, but 2 seconds later she surges again. I don't need comepition heeling, which she is also learning, but without that treat in my hand, i have to constantly tell her to slow down, instead i want her to stay close and then when i release her 'ok' she can walk at her leasure a little more.

any help would be greatly apprectiated.

cheers

bret

Hi Bret,

it is very hard to give an exact tip what you shoul do without seeing you two work together but from your description I wonder if the problem might be that you are reinforcing the unwanted behaviour without wanting to. Obviously your dog can't distinguish between wanted behaviour and unwanted. IMO your dog is an "attention junkie" and every type of attention seems to reinforce her (for example bringing her back to her mat).

IMO you should focus on sending clearer messages and unwanted behaviour has to be completely ignored.

Cheers, Anissa

[bret]

Hi Bret,

it is very hard to give an exact tip what you shoul do without seeing you two work together but from your description I wonder if the problem might be that you are reinforcing the unwanted behaviour without wanting to. Obviously your dog can't distinguish between wanted behaviour and unwanted. IMO your dog is an "attention junkie" and every type of attention seems to reinforce her (for example bringing her back to her mat).

IMO you should focus on sending clearer messages and unwanted behaviour has to be completely ignored.

Cheers, Anissa

Hi anissa

thanks for your speedy reply, i feel that you might be right, the thing is we have tried the ignoring thing, but as cute as it is, she will leave her head on your lap, and give you one of those 'ruff' little barks that say 'hey, i am here look at me' i did have a break through i feel today in the walking though, i again took my treats, but this time i used them a little more sparingly, instead of getting a 'yes' and a treat when she healed, i just tapped her and 'good girl'. i think that maybe i am putting too much emphasis on my marker too often. ie: maybe she has the basics down, and i need to mark more perfect behaviour.. does that sound right?

also, anyone with clicker/marker training knowledge, when you start out and click/mark and treat, can you use the click/marker and say a pat as a lesser reward? to make the dog think that wasn't good enough cause i didn't get the treat? if that made sense.

bret

[PAX]

Bret,

I use a non reward marker when they try but give an incorrect response.

I say 'oops', I don't say it with a bad tone just a really neutral voice. I think it gives them some information to try again without discouraging them.

If you are starting to train something new make sure you break it down really small so you can c/t lots so they keep trying and have sucsess. If you lump it together it becomes to hard for them to understand and they may stop trying. When they understand what you want you can c/t the fastest, straightest or whatever you want to improve.

You could easily C/T her to lay on her own bed, after all she is a super smart BC.

[Anissa]

also, anyone with clicker/marker training knowledge, when you start out and click/mark and treat, can you use the click/marker and say a pat as a lesser reward? to make the dog think that wasn't good enough cause i didn't get the treat? if that made sense.

You can use any reward your dog actually sees as a reward. Since your dog seems to enjoy close body contact a simple pat might be a good reward. I use different food rewards: I have several different types of treat which have different "values" for my dogs. I use simple commercially available dog treats, selfmade liver-carot treats and their absolute highlight are these dog sausages (junk junk junk food!!!)

Depending how difficult the lession was I give different types of treats. For my collie girl a play of fetch is a nice reward as well.

[Staranais]

I have trained her in sit stay and down stay, when I am training her she will stay for how ever long i want, but lets just say at night which is mainly the worst time, we are watching a movie, she is on her mat watching with us, she constantly has to be touched or patted, she will go lie down and in like 30 secs she will creep up thinking we can't see her move and put her nose on your leg for a pat. I won't pat her unless i call her over, and i put her back on the mat if she moves, but i can't seem to have her stay still.

It sounds like you are saying that she understands what you want, but that in this situation she isn't motivated to do it. i.e, she is happy to do a long down stay in the evening on the bed while you are watching, but isn't prepared to stay when you're not paying attention to her. Is that right?

If that's the case, then I'm guessing it's because being on the bed is boring, and coming over to you is rewarding.

She finds your attention rewarding - even if you don't ever pat her when she comes over, just touching her and making eye contact in order to put her back on the bed might be reinforcing the behaviour if she's that keen on attention. Even if you just sit there and don't even look at her when she puts her head on your lap, then her being able to make body contact with you might be enough reward for her to keep coming over.

Solution IMO is to either make the bed a more fun place to be, or make getting off the bed less rewarding.

So either periodically reinforce her while she's on the bed in the evening (get up and go over every five minutes and give her some affection for being there), and of course ignore her when she's off the bed - that makes being on the bed more rewarding compared to getting off it. You can gradually extend the time between going over to pet her until you're only going to see her in the ad breaks.

Or else make getting off the bed less rewarding, e.g march her straight into "time out" for ten minutes whenever she gets off the bed, after all sitting in the corner with the family is way more fun than being in isolation in the hallway or yard.

Or try both.

Or else get her a crate instead of a dog bed.

[jaybeece]

She finds your attention rewarding - even if you don't ever pat her when she comes over, just touching her and making eye contact in order to put her back on the bed might be reinforcing the behaviour if she's that keen on attention. Even if you just sit there and don't even look at her when she puts her head on your lap, then her being able to make body contact with you might be enough reward for her to keep coming over.

Solution IMO is to either make the bed a more fun place to be, or make getting off the bed less rewarding.

I'd agree with this. My dog is banned from the kitchen, but he'll try to creep in sometimes when I'm not looking. Same goes for his bed. I usually see him out of the corner of my eye or hear his footsteps. I never look at him or pay any attention for him other to say "Out!" or "On the bed!" in a neutral tone.

It's doubly effective because of the lack of eye contact as he seems to think I have eyes in the back of my head Once he's done as he's told he gets attention and praise.

[J...]

I had a similar problem with Darcy when she was younger, she wasn't always looking for a pat but she'd just get fidgety and I had to keep telling her to go back to her bed.

Only well behaved dogs are allowed in my house, if I had to tell her any more than once to go back to her bed, she went outside.

She soon learnt that if she wanted to stay inside she had to stay where she was told. Now she's learnt this, she's welcome to move between either heater and either bed and obviously her water. But no getting up and sniffing round the cat food or getting into stuff she's not supposed to.

If I asked her to move then thats different. Plus I always make sure she's well tired out and worked before expecting her to sit quietly all night.

[Erny]

She finds your attention rewarding - even if you don't ever pat her when she comes over, just touching her and making eye contact in order to put her back on the bed might be reinforcing the behaviour if she's that keen on attention. Even if you just sit there and don't even look at her when she puts her head on your lap, then her being able to make body contact with you might be enough reward for her to keep coming over.

I would hedge my bets that the above is what's happening - ie that she is achieving her goal merely by the fact that your attention is diverted to her, even if only to return her to her mat.

I never used a formal "down/stay" command when I indicated to my girl to go to her mat (assuming it was simply to 'settle down' for a part of the evening). My 'informal command' was "lay-down". If she later got up to move, I didn't worry about it. Don't know if this suits your circumstances but if it does then for the purposes of your problem (ie getting up for your attention) I'd only give her an informal command for her mat. That way, if she does get up you can completely ignore her (without having the need to address her obedience to the command) - and that means no speak, no touch and no eye contact. Fold your arms (still without looking at her) so she can't nudge under your hands.

Also, be aware of any other time/s that she approaches and nudges for your attention - you may well find that what she's doing now has been being reinforced in more than just this situation.

[Sarah L]

hi everyone, i have 2 or 3 quick questions, that could possibly turn into longer ones, but i will be brief with the opening post 1) my BC is the most affectionate dog i have ever met, i mean AFFECTIONATE. her training when i get a chance really goes awesome, she picks up things quicker than i expected. But her constant need for touching is sometimes incredibly annoying. I have trained her in sit stay and down stay, when I am training her she will stay for how ever long i want, but lets just say at night which is mainly the worst time, we are watching a movie, she is on her mat watching with us, she constantly has to be touched or patted, she will go lie down and in like 30 secs she will creep up thinking we can't see her move and put her nose on your leg for a pat. I won't pat her unless i call her over, and i put her back on the mat if she moves, but i can't seem to have her stay still.

Well for once I totally agree with what Amhailte and Erny have said in regards to your mat problem. This will work and is a very good way to solve this problem. Amhailte I never got the chance to thank you for your last post in our other thread. I am not cross threading but did appreciate the non attack for once.

A good way to make the mat more interesting is along with the informal command is give the dog something that will keep it occupied for the duration that you want it to stay there for, this is used if a problem has arisen and not used if taught properly from the start. Examples: Stuffed kong that is packed tightly for the dog to work on. Pigs ear for the dog to gnaw on making sure the mat is big enough for the dog to stand up turn around and lie down on. If the dog is inclined to want to move when this is given then also what someone else said about the dog going outside is good, only in this case the dog can go outside without worrying it has done something wrong. When you let the dog back in it will be tired out enough for the informal command to work better.

2) surging when walking. i take her for a walk every day, now she isnt a puller like 'i need to run let me go' pulling, but she does tend to surge. i have tried every trick under the sun. i stop, i turn, i take treats so that when she is doing the right thing i treat her, i have tried the 'slow'-correction, and when i say slow she instantly looks at me and slows down, but 2 seconds later she surges again. I don't need comepition heeling, which she is also learning, but without that treat in my hand, i have to constantly tell her to slow down, instead i want her to stay close and then when i release her 'ok' she can walk at her leasure a little more.

On this matter, IMO, every trick under the sun has only given your dog more ammo to use in knowing what you are going to do and can counter act what you do. Have you tried walking your dog without a lead on. You are obviously doing more than the average pet dog owner as far as training goes. This is not recommended for people who have not done much training with their dogs. The lead is a big telephone line and communicates to the dog what you are about to do. Gee now I am showing my age but never a truer word spoken. Try walking your dog firstly in a low distractive situation without the lead. If the dog surges forward turn sharply in the opposite direction and watch the dog go what the It will soon give up on the surges when you keep doing this without the lead on. It will be more relaxed and willing to stay by your side if it cannot read what you are about to do. When you have this comfortably under control you can move onto more distractive situations. Then you can put the lead back on and work with it very loose on the dog and you wont have any more problems.

I hope this has helped you.

[Staranais]

Erny: I never used a formal "down/stay" command when I indicated to my girl to go to her mat (assuming it was simply to 'settle down' for a part of the evening). My 'informal command' was "lay-down". If she later got up to move, I didn't worry about it.

That's what we do too - my boy has a mat command that means he has to stay on his bed (or on anything else that I nominate if we're at another house) until released, which is quite different to a formal "down stay" command where I expect him to not move and to keep the right position. That means he can relax too, curl up, whatever he likes, as long as at least one body part remains on the mat. Very handy command, it's about the first thing I'll teach a new dog when it comes to stay with us.

Pinnacle dts: Amhailte I never got the chance to thank you for your last post in our other thread.

You're welcome. :D