Henrietta Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 How do you define leadership? How do you know that you are the leader in you and your dog's (or dogs') relationship? What are leadership attributes? What are some of the way that you ensure that your dog knows that you are the leader? Thought it would be an interesting topic to talk about, sometimes I think leadership in its' simplicity, can be actually confusing. Or maybe it is just me. Anyway, leadership is a topic that really interest me, but I feel like I myself can't define it, because I don't fully understand it myself. I think it is important to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 (edited) How do you define leadership? The dictionary definition : A person who rules, guides and inspires others. The dictionary definition of 'guide' : To lead the way for (a person); to control the movement or course of (an animal ... ) ... How do you know that you are the leader in you and your dog's (or dogs') relationship? I think this question is particularly difficult to answer in 'words' because without being in the mind of the dog and being able to hear its thoughts, there is a degree of subjectivity to the answer. In an attempt to proffer a reply, however ...... I look for signs that my dog defers to me including in times of stress and/or uncertainty and when an important decision is to be made. I look for a dog who is relaxed and in harmony with me in both familiar and unfamiliar environments. I look for a dog who is calm of mind whether in play or in rest; for a dog who is not confused of its boundaries and limitations. Contentment. What are leadership attributes? When I've used this expression I've meant it to mean the exhibition of actions which prescribe to the dog the trustworthy leadership it needs, depends on and can rely on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This includes providing the dog with what it needs and in the right proportions (as much as is humanly possible) and in the right order of priority. Understanding that what dogs need in what proportions/priorities are not the same as our own and hence delivering accordingly; that dogs perceive the world with the same senses that we possess, but that those senses are used in a different priority order and to different degrees than what we are capable of. Demonstration of your ability to guard and protect your dog (but not in a human nurturing way, as we commonly make the mistake of doing) and your acceptance and insistence that this is your role/responsibility. What are some of the way that you ensure that your dog knows that you are the leader? As per the above - a dog who defers to you in times of stress and/or uncertainty; a dog who is relaxed and in harmony with you. A dog who is calm of mind whether in play or in rest; a dog who is not confused of its boundaries and limitations; contentment. Edited July 24, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I agree that this is a confusing topic. Most trainers I have talked to agree that dogs need some sort of leadership from their owners (thought they might call it something else), but there seem to be a lot of different ideas out there about what leadership actually is and how we can tell whether we have it. Some dog trainers I have talked to have quite silly (IMO) ideas about what leadership is. Some don't believe in it at all, I have talked to people who think that leadership is a dirty word, and being a dog's leader is just not needed if you train your dog properly and positively. Whereas others go to the other extreme and seem to think that anything "naughty" your dog does is necessarily a sign of bad leadership. I think that's rather simplistic, in my experience dogs can be "naughty" for many reasons - health reasons, fears, or perhaps we rewarded that behaviour in the past, or we never bothered to teach and reward an alternative behaviour? To me, being a leader is giving your dog everything he needs, both physically and mentally. It's insisting that your dog respects you and your wishes, not letting your dog disregard you or demand things from you. It's teaching your dog everything he needs to know to cope with life in a human orientated world, where following his natural instincts can sometimes be dangerous. It's protecting him from unwanted interaction from strange people, strange dogs and letting him take his cue from you in scary environments. I know I am my dog's leader as he turns to me for guidance in times of stress, he (generally) obeys my directives under distraction, he acts very worried and unhappy if he senses that I am upset with him, and he would rather be around me than anybody else. In other words, I mostly agree with Erny. Interesting topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrietta Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 Amhalite I agree, I feel that a lot of trainers/dog owners think it is a dirty word too. I thought maybe it was just me who thought it a bit on the confusing side. ;) I mean, I understand what leadership is, but it is a bit ambiguous and I suppose the methods we use and the signs that an individual dog will give us can vary markedly. Thanks Erny too, I guess you can't really know what your dog is thinking, but we have to use the knowledge that we have about canine behaviour to the best of our ability, to attempt to interpret it's feelings on how it feels within the relationship. I think it is all very interesting, I don't suppose anyone has any good reads - books, articles etc, on this topic that they could recommend me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab_Rat Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) Yay, just the thread I'm looking for! Why is "leadership", or more correctly how to be a good leader so ethereal? I have read quite a number of books about the dog/human relationship, the psychology of dogs etc., by authors such as Jon Fisher, John Richardson and Jan Fennel. So I have all this amazing info swimming around in my head, but I just cant put my finger on "how"! ;) I honestly didnt think I was that thick. I ubderstand all the stuff about eating first, going through doors before them, and we have pu these things into practice. But is there a simple definition of "How to be a good leader for your dog", or am I just chasing rainbows? I was told recently my dog has it all over me! This quite upset me, as I thought I was doing okay in my human/dog relationship. As my username suggests, I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback. She is a 12, almost 13 month old, and is quite different personality wise from my previous RR girl. She is alot more independent, dominating (but not full on dominant), and quite pushy. With help from our breeder, a private trainer and kindy obedience (she came third in the class which I was very proud of), I feel she has a good basic education. Obviously because of her nature I have to be one step ahead of her all the time which after having a neutral type of dog is very demanding! Especially when leadership doesnt come naturally! My question or questions are: How can I be a better leader for my dog? i.e. what sort of "exercises", physical and mental, should we be doing together to improve our realtionship, so that I can gain more respect from my dog. I would love some constructive ideas from all involved in dog training as a profession. I am unsure whether continuing obedience, at classes or individual, is the way to go, or some other path is where I should be heading. Being as hour away from anywhere useful doggy wise and being a shiftworker make it difficult to go to something on a regular basis, but I dont want to end up with a dog that noone wants to be around! Zola is only my 2nd "real" dog, and although I feel I am a competant dog owner with a decent amount of knowledge up my sleeve, I know I have vast amount of learning to do. You only realise how much you dont know when you get a dog with an outside the square temperament! Some of her other personality traits are as follows: Excitable, a "good dog" praise is enough for her Protective, she will bark at people when she is in her car Ignores?, if she doesnt want to hear me, or do something she will totally ignore me Loving, for a ridgeback she is quite an affectionate, snuggly dog Has a high prey drive I hope SomeOne out there can point me in the right direction RG Edited July 25, 2007 by RidgyGirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) But is there a simple definition of "How to be a good leader for your dog", or am I just chasing rainbows? Be calm, assertive and consistent. On more than numerous occasions, people with their problematic (eg disobedient; not mindful of their owners; sometimes fear aggressive type dogs) will hand the lead over to me (or some other trainers) and sometimes without having done anything, the dog is immediately a different and 'better' and in some cases more confident dog. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone say "but whenever the trainer is there my dog is better behaved". I often joke and tell them they need to buy a training shirt. But IMO the dog is simply picking up on the natural assertiveness that I and other trainers carry and exhibit. If people who aren't naturally 'assertive' at least first begin by outwardly showing assertiveness through (primarily) body language and (secondary) use of voice, the assertiveness that isn't initially natural has a chance of growing to become second nature and more progress into their dog's behaviour modification may be possible. ETA: Giving people "leadership programs" to follow by way of 'regime' not only helps change the dog's perspective of heirarchy status but also sometimes and simultaneously helps their owners to unconsciously learn 'assertiveness' when they otherwise don't know how to or wouldn't. That is, of course, dependant on whether people follow through with the program in the first place. Amhailte: I have talked to people who think that leadership is a dirty word ... I agree. I have gone from referring to "Being dominant" to "Alpha Leader" to "Leader" because of the connotations people prescribe, over time, to the words. Even now I'm tending to ascribe to the words "Pack Leader" because it sounds more "teamsy" and I'm hoping it paints the right image in people's minds. Being a good leader is about being firm but fair and being consistent about it, IMO. But even the word "assertive" is becoming a dirty word to some. I guess this has something to do with the ever evolving politically correct society we're all pressured into living in. Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Emmala: I think it is all very interesting, I don't suppose anyone has any good reads - books, articles etc, on this topic that they could recommend me? Susan Clothier: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/leadership.html Patricia McConnell "the other end of the leash" has a good chapter on dominance, and is a very good book overall - highly recommended. An article called "Groundwork to Establishing Pack Structure for Adult Dogs" can be found here: http://www.leerburg.com/dogtrainingebooks.htm The Leerburg website has a heap of great stuff (and some that's not so great, I have been told that over the years Ed Frawley has changed from a mostly yank-and-crank trainer to one who uses a lot of drive and even sells clickers, but unfortunately some of the old stuff is still on the website!) Keep in mind that the Leerburg people generally deal with very pushy, high drive working dogs - not just pets - but it is an interesting perspective. Jan Fennell's "Dog Listener" books might be a good read for you, although they definately aren't my favourites. She has lots of useful exercises to do with dominant or pushy dogs, but from what I can tell she does not have a wide knowledge base, from reading her book I get the impression that she thinks just about every problem behaviour is caused by "dominance" - I wouldn't bother buying her books, but get them out of the library if they're there. Cesar Milan's book "Cesar's Way" is OK too, he deals almost exclusively with pack structure. I liked it more than his TV shows anyway! Another one to get out of the library if it's there, but not to buy, IMO. Erny: I have gone from referring to "Being dominant" to "Alpha Leader" to "Leader" because of the connotations people prescribe, over time, to the words. Even now I'm tending to ascribe to the words "Pack Leader" because it sounds more "teamsy" and I'm hoping it paints the right image in people's minds. It's strange, isn't it? I understand why some people don't like the word "dominant" since perhaps it suggests alpha rolls and beatings, etc. But what could be wrong with the word "leader"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) ... what could be wrong with the word "leader"? I don't know Am, but can only guess that it's got something to do with our modern day human society feelings about 'equality' and the emotional rejection of anything other than that. I think also that people think that being and assuming the rights of a "leader" has a 'selfish' flavour to it too. But if they'd realise the responsibilities of a leader they might more readily understand that assuming the role of 'leader' is far from being selfish - often it's quite the opposite. Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrietta Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 I don't know how 'leader' can have negative connotations either, but I bet you are right Erny - it's our "modern human society feeling about 'equality' and our emotional rejection of anything other than that." (That's meant to be a quote). :rolleyes: Thanks Amhailte, seems like quite a list to get me started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) I don't know how 'leader' can have negative connotations either, but I bet you are right Erny - it's our "modern human society feeling about 'equality' and our emotional rejection of anything other than that." Just an additional thought - sometimes some people reject the idea that they aren't already recognised as a 'leader' by their dog - I think they assume that their own self-image is compromised by this thought, although it shouldn't be - the fact that these people have sought help in the first place puts them up on my ladder, at least :rolleyes:. Not infrequently I've needed to enter into explanation about how the dog perceives things and why, so that a person's ego isn't scratched. Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 When I think about leadership I remember that it's not just one way of encouraging the most out of people (or dogs) but finding the best way to do it for each individual. To me leadership is about developing an understanding of a dog and using the best way to guide and motivate and reward it to achieve what you want. I often try to picture a style of leadership (even to dogs) by picturing an inspirational leader. You can try the "my way or the highway" style but a lot of dogs will not respond. Calm, consistent but assertive coaching will get you where you want to be most of the time with dogs (and I would argue with people). I'd rather be like Ghandi than like Idi Amin. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Be calm, assertive and consistent. Calm, consistent but assertive coaching ... I see we're talking on the same page, PF. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 E: Not infrequently I've needed to enter into explanation about how the dog perceives things and why, so that a person's ego isn't scratched. K9: Never had that happen......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I think also that people think that being and assuming the rights of a "leader" has a 'selfish' flavour to it too. But if they'd realise the responsibilities of a leader they might more readily understand that assuming the role of 'leader' is far from being selfish - often it's quite the opposite. I think you might be on to something. :rolleyes: Lots of people seem to think that being a leader is all about pushing a dog around, making sure that you "dominate" your dog, as if the dog is just waiting in the wings to seize the pack leadership the first time you show a moments weakness. I can see why people don't like that idea, and I see why they don't think that kind of "leadership" is necessary (for the vast majority of dogs anyway). Less gets said about a leader's responsibilities and obligations. Any hey, if you want a more PC word, perhaps you need to start encouraging your clients to be their dog's "guardian"? :lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) I use the word "coach" a lot these days. :rolleyes: The day I use the word "guardian" in a training sense is the day you have my full permission to slap me silly. Edited July 25, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) E: Not infrequently I've needed to enter into explanation about how the dog perceives things and why, so that a person's ego isn't scratched. K9: Never had that happen......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) Are you saying you've never had your ego scratched, K9 ???? Naaahhhh ...... surely not. Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 E: Not infrequently I've needed to enter into explanation about how the dog perceives things and why, so that a person's ego isn't scratched. K9: Never had that happen......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) Are you saying you've never had your ego scratched, K9 ???? Naaahhhh ...... surely not. K9: No, I meant that I havent ever had someone think me telling them they needed to improve their leadership & them become offended (not!).. As for my ego? I am sure you have heard of the man of steel? My ego is always totally unscratched!! Though I will say I have met a few ego vandals in my time who have tried... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) K9: No, I meant that I havent ever had someone think me telling them they needed to improve their leadership & them become offended (not!).. Edited ..... because I've just caught on to the facitiousness expressed in your answer. Sorry - a bit sluggish today. :rolleyes: As for my ego? I am sure you have heard of the man of steel? My ego is always totally unscratched!! ;) Though I will say I have met a few ego vandals in my time who have tried... Ahah! But we all know that Kryptonite is your weakness! :rolleyes: Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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