Nevafollo Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 ok so basically im trying to teach levi that lounges and chairs are for humans n cats not for big boof heads so i got him a mat today one of those cushion ones and i am trying to teach him to stay on it any tips on this process would be greatly appreciated!!! also i'd love some tips on lead training, basically he will heal, sit, and drop in perfect position, but this is only with the lead OFF you put the lead on and he is a different dog, ive tried a check chain and he choked himself ive tried a soft collar and he choked himself, this is with me trying to motivate him with a food or toy he is just constantly pulling, have him currently on a gentle leader and he hangs his head and hates it despite my best efforts of keeping him motivated. Any suggestions for how to get him to like his lead? and what would the best collar/check chain to use on a big boof head or should i just keep trying with a check chain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavsRcute Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I have used a Black Dog martingdale collar with success. I put it on for about 5 mins every 1/2 hr and gave her treats when she was quiet and it only took her about 5 goes before she was comfortable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevafollo Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 kool thank i will have a look at one of those.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 (edited) K9: Very hard to see where your training is at without seeing where your training is at. For the couch though, if you dont want the dog on the lounge, where do you want the dog to be? Showing the dog what you do want is more important than what you dont want... Consider crate training your dog or providing a mat to lay on, then reward that action & begin to discourage the lounge & chair action... Head halters often do that, see my article on what I have found.. http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=halter.html Also we have martingales with chain in place of the nylon that others use... I have found this a much stronger alternative. http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=mart.html Edited July 24, 2007 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevafollo Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 thanx K9 how do the martigales that are all chain go any better than the chain with nylon? he is crate trained and last night he slept his first night OUT of my room (his crate used to be in my room) and he went well hes a real big sook probably cause i made him tht way but hes getting better when hes inside of a day he has a matt he is ment to lie on i just cant get him to stay there very long unless hes buggered guess i just need to keep working on it after all he is only 5 months!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 thanx K9 how do the martigales that are all chain go any better than the chain with nylon? he is crate trained and last night he slept his first night OUT of my room (his crate used to be in my room) and he went well hes a real big sook probably cause i made him tht way but hes getting better when hes inside of a day he has a matt he is ment to lie on i just cant get him to stay there very long unless hes buggered guess i just need to keep working on it after all he is only 5 months!!! K9: The chain is stronger than nylon, thats where I have seen others break when the dogs lunge.. Use his crate to get him to stay when you can watch him all of the time, or it will weaken the strength (meaning) of the command if he is successfully breaking it all the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Have you ever thought about clicker training? It is a nice and easy method to teach your dog what you want (for example stay on your bed not on my couch). I am personally not a fan of choke, martingal or any other type of collar that can hurt the dog or works as some sort of punishment because it is simply like K9 wrote before: it will teach your dog what you don't want but not what you want. When teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash I go for the "traffic lamp principle": pulling = red lamp = brakes/stopping (you can even walk slowly backwards a bit) & walking on the loose leash = green lamp = walking forward + reward/praise. You can include the clicker in this as well by rewarding the wanted behaviour with an additional "click & treat". In this way you not only tell what you don't want but alos offer an alternative behaviour. So simply using a certain collar type is not the solution (if you feel more comfortable while using a martingal or whatever, that's your choice) you have to make it clear to your dog what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Have you ever thought about clicker training? It is a nice and easy method to teach your dog what you want (for example stay on your bed not on my couch). K9: marker training is very effective, but you dnt need a clicker & you will find some dogs that find the click quite aversive... I am personally not a fan of choke, martingal or any other type of collar that can hurt the dog or works as some sort of punishment because it is simply like K9 wrote before: it will teach your dog what you don't want but not what you want. K9: It would be nice if all dogs responded to gentle persuation but simply some dont... When teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash I go for the "traffic lamp principle": pulling = red lamp = brakes/stopping (you can even walk slowly backwards a bit) & walking on the loose leash = green lamp = walking forward + reward/praise.You can include the clicker in this as well by rewarding the wanted behaviour with an additional "click & treat". K9: This is the simple program that many trainers supply that simply wont work for all dogs... The stopping in the face of the reward can often lead to frustaion which elevates the dogs drive & will see it pull harder on the leash... In this way you not only tell what you don't want but alos offer an alternative behaviour. K9: In reality your not teaching the alternative behaviour that you want, which is walking next to you, your teaching the dog to stop & or sit... So simply using a certain collar type is not the solution (if you feel more comfortable while using a martingal or whatever, that's your choice) you have to make it clear to your dog what you want. K9: there isnt anything simple at all, one size fits all programs tend to fall down when you need to work with larger numbers of dogs... Like I said, we havent seen the dog so we cant really say what will work, or what wont... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I taught mine to stay on their mat by using food and taking them to the mat, give command (I use 'Place') and then 'Drop' and they get the reward when they are lying down. At the start if they get on the couch I will lure them off with food giving 'Off' command and then give 'Place' command and take them to their mat. With walking, a good technique will take you a long way! What have you tried so far? Does he pull back or forward on the lead? I assume forward as he wants to go for a walk but in your post it also sounds like he may not like being on lead? Changing direction when the dog pulls often works well. In terms of equipment, I would probably start with a martingale and see how you go from there. The only problem with the ones that are all chain is that you can't adjust the size, so they are not as effective as they are generally too big and sit in the wrong position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) I am personally not a fan of choke, martingal or any other type of collar that can hurt the dog or works as some sort of punishment because it is simply like K9 wrote before: it will teach your dog what you don't want but not what you want. It goes without saying that it's what works for the dog that is the best method. Anissa - I'm aware this is simply your preference and to which you are of course entitled and I have no argument with that, but there is one part of your statement (highlighted) that I think deserves additional explanation so the OP can understand the bigger picture and not merely a selected part of it. Learning by consequence is a principal of learning in the animal kingdom. Any one who knows about dog training, equipment and its use will also know that generally, training is not simply about the application of negatives, but also about positives. When you work to make the message black and white, it makes it easier for the dog to learn. The easier it is for a dog to learn, the quicker learning will occur and this in itself widens the window of opportunity for the dog to receive more positives more quickly and more frequently. Teaching the dog what TO do is done by the application of a desired consequence for the desired behaviour. Teaching the dog what NOT to do is done by the application of an undesired consequence for the undesired behaviour. I do like to show the dog what TO do first, though. This makes it easier for the dog to 'default' (couldn't think of a better word) to that behaviour when he/she receives a negative for the undesireable behaviour. Teaching what TO do doesn't have to be that complicated nor even time consuming. It might be as simple as 'preventing' your dog from being on the couch (eg. tether) and then rewarding because he/she isn't there nor trying to be there. So whilst there is truth in your statement, Anissa, use of the equipment as referred to only is simply one half of the equation. Having said that, whilst I don't frequently indulge in use of the clicker for training, I see no problem with using the clicker as a marker for the desired behaviour if that's what anyone has the inclination to do. Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 @ K9 and Erny I absolutely agree that there is no such thing a a simple recipe to train a specific task or avoid a specific behaviour for every dog. I also just wanted to point out that neither a collar (nor the clicker of course) is the solution to every problem they are just tools you can choose to use (or not). It alway requires to see the whole picture when you want to train a dog or get rid of unwanted behaviour. I have to admit that I am a clicker addict and always try to go that way as far as I can. But my experience is that I am definately I am able to teach the loose leash walking not stopping or sitting if I do the "whole thing" (stopping when pulling AND walking & rewarding when not). If I would just stop and refuse to walk any further after the dog started pulling once, your arguments would be correct but I combine two things in my lesson: the way that won't work (pulling the leash) and the way that works for the dog (walking on the loose leash). I have applied this method on many dogs (probabely by far not as much as you two have trained) and up to now it worked every time, sometimes it took longer, sometimes I achieved results very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) @ K9 and ErnyBut my experience is that I am definately I am able to teach the loose leash walking not stopping or sitting if I do the "whole thing" (stopping when pulling AND walking & rewarding when not). It seems you are saying what I've said above (ie the 'big picture'), although I'm not sure what bearing this has on your statement that you don't like equipment such as the martingale etc. because it "only teaches the dog what NOT to do". I'm not bringing this up as a debate to suggest you should like collars such as the martingale etc - that's your personal choice. But I'm not sure where what you say above (bold highlighted) supports your above reason for NOT liking them. If I would just stop and refuse to walk any further after the dog started pulling once, your arguments would be correct but I combine two things in my lesson: the way that won't work (pulling the leash) and the way that works for the dog (walking on the loose leash). Again - I support this as mentioned in my earlier post. Show the dog what TO do as well as what NOT to do. But I am further confused as to how what you say here supports the reason you've stated for you not liking martingales etc. Please understand I'm not challenging you for your not liking the named equipment - that debate can be found in countless other threads. But I'm not sure what you mean by "I am personally not a fan of choke, martingal or any other type of collar that can hurt the dog or works as some sort of punishment because ... it will teach your dog what you don't want but not what you want." My earlier post was to try to point out that to not like the equipment styles you mention "because they teach the dog what not to do" is taking into account only half the equation and therefore wasn't an accurate argument to support or refute preference. A flat collar on a dog doesn't teach it what TO do either. It's what YOU do that counts. I'm now a bit confused about what you're trying to say in regards to martingales etc. :rolleyes: Edited July 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I'm now a bit confused about what you're trying to say in regards to martingales etc. Hi Erny, I don't use (even a normal flat) collars generally and don't like them for my dogs. For Peaches (my Collie girl) it would probabely make no difference since she would never under no circumstances pull on the leash but Manu is still a bit unpredictable (he is a Galgo X and can't help it :D ) even though he is walking perfect on the leash in 95% of the time. But IF he decides to go after a rabbit (or whatever) he could hurt himself severly by wearing any type of collar. Have you read the book of Anders Hallgren about back problems of dogs (I'm not sure if it is available in english, I have read it in german)? He strongly recomends the use of harnesses since you can minimise the risk of injuring the dog's back. For this reason I have never used collars on Manu and therefore have no experiences with any type. I don't doubt that you are sending your message more precisely using a martingal (or whatever) collar. I personally choose to get my results a bit slower rather than risking back problems in my dog but its definately everybodys own choice of which tools you like to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 A: Have you read the book of Anders Hallgren about back problems of dogs (I'm not sure if it is available in english, I have read it in german)? He strongly recomends the use of harnesses since you can minimise the risk of injuring the dog's back. K9: & when the dog is wearing the harness, what exactly do you use to minimize the injury to the handlers back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Since everyone else is on the equipment bandwagon here I don't think harnesses are necessarily good for dogs either. If the dog has not been to walk nicely without pulling, I have seen some which walk funny because of a harness and which walk much nicer and look more comfortable in a collar. Not to mention they are MUCH easier to control in a collar than a harness. I personally can't see how you would be able to train in a harness due to the small amount of control they give - even getting them to change direction is difficult. Quite a few dogs come into work on harnesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amstaffmum Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 With K9's help - my older girl is now trained to walk perfectly with her collar on........no strain on her back there Sammy, with getting Levi to stay on his mat - the way i did it with Ella was to tell her to go to bed, give her a treat and then say stay. EVERYTIME she moved off that bed i put her back there straight away and told her to stay. Have a release word for him when he is allowed to get off then reward. It took a few days and one long session of being locked outside for being cheeky and now Ella will stay on her bed no problems. Levi will probably take a bit longer being younger. Oh, it helps to have a collar on him that makes noise so you dont have to be in the same room all the time but can hear if he's trying to sneak off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 With K9's help - my older girl is now trained to walk perfectly with her collar on........no strain on her back there Sammy, with getting Levi to stay on his mat - the way i did it with Ella was to tell her to go to bed, give her a treat and then say stay. EVERYTIME she moved off that bed i put her back there straight away and told her to stay. Have a release word for him when he is allowed to get off then reward. It took a few days and one long session of being locked outside for being cheeky and now Ella will stay on her bed no problems. Levi will probably take a bit longer being younger. Oh, it helps to have a collar on him that makes noise so you dont have to be in the same room all the time but can hear if he's trying to sneak off K9: Thanks Staffy mum, I sometimes (most times) struggle with DOL names, just so I have it right, you did my distance learning package on loose leash walking, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 K9: & when the dog is wearing the harness, what exactly do you use to minimize the injury to the handlers back? Good question!!! Luckily I have no probs with my back and do loads of sports anyway so the handling is not a problem for me. But I would recommend doing sports when you have back probs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amstaffmum Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 With K9's help - my older girl is now trained to walk perfectly with her collar on........no strain on her back there K9: Thanks Staffy mum, I sometimes (most times) struggle with DOL names, just so I have it right, you did my distance learning package on loose leash walking, am I right? Yep, thats me You saved Ella from never getting walked ever again ;) Im also doing the puppy training distance learning thingy with Koda (Amstaff pup who is brother to sammy's Levi!!!) You know i love your work Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 With K9's help - my older girl is now trained to walk perfectly with her collar on........no strain on her back there K9: Thanks Staffy mum, I sometimes (most times) struggle with DOL names, just so I have it right, you did my distance learning package on loose leash walking, am I right? Yep, thats me You saved Ella from never getting walked ever again ;) Im also doing the puppy training distance learning thingy with Koda (Amstaff pup who is brother to sammy's Levi!!!) You know i love your work Steve K9: Number 1, I didnt save your dogm YOU did that, I have never met either of you, I simply gave you some tips.. Number 2. Its me who loves your work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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