Veterinary Behaviourist Vs Behavioural Trainer

[Cosmolo]

The title pretty much says it all- i'm very interested in getting some different perspectives on this question.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of choosing a veterinary behaviourist?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of seeing a Behavioural trainer? (who has completed the NDTF behaviourists course for example or equivalent experience)

I am asking in the context of more serious behavioural problems such as anxiety, aggression, OCD etc. All opinions welcome

[helen]

If I had a truely serious problem I would choose the veterinary behaviourist, they have higher qualifications and can dispense medications if necessary. They may also have some insight to any health problems.

If I had a less of a problem, personally, I would be looking for a Delta qualified person. Any behaviourist should know when they are out of their depth and refer to a veterinary behaviourist anyway

[Cosmolo]

I understand that a veterinary behaviourist is highly qualified- but are their qualifications 'higher' than a behavioural trainer or just different? I totally agree that any behaviourist should know when they're out of their depth, but am interested in why referral to a veterinary behaviourist would occur over perhaps a more experienced (than the person doing the onward referral) behavioural trainer? (this is assuming similar experience levels etc) Is it primarily because of the ability of the veterinary behaviorist to dispense medication?

[Ms James]

It's basically like the difference between choosing a psychologist & a psychiatrist, isn't it? Same theory, different methods of learning. I'd use one in extreme circumstances where medication was necessary & the dispensing of said medication had to be done by a vet behaviourist - I know for Roggie, when we first went to the vet's to see what we could do & if we should put him on chlomicalm, the vet said we should consult with a vet behaviourist before ever putting him on such medication. As it stands, he doesn't need the meds - well I don't think he's so extreme in his aggro issues that it requires them.

Cost would also be a major factor - vet behaviourists charge an exorbitant fee!

[Miranda]

I think you'll find that for some people a vet simply has more credibility, people assume that a person who has has attended uni, qualified and practised as a vet for x number of years and then gone on to study behavioural science is a professional person who will know a lot more than someone off the street who has only completed an NFDT or Delta course. After all anyone can do these courses, you don't even have to complete Year 10. Vets are regarded in the same way as doctors and the general public automatically assume that they know everything there is to know about dogs. I mean how often do you hear people on this forum say 'I asked my vet' when they needed advice about feeding, grooming, grooming equipment, training, behavioural problems etc., you and I know that vets don't know everything, but to most pet owners a vet is some kind of god and what they say is gospel.

You also have to remember that there are a lot of people around at the moment who profess to be dog trainers and behaviourists, and that quite a few of these people are totally unqualified, sometimes it's very hard for the average pet owner to tell them apart. If they're employing the services of a veterinary behaviourist at least they know that this person has completed many years of study and has professional qualifications obtained at a university and this makes them feel confident that this is a person of integrity who they can trust and who will know the best way to treat their dog.

[Staff'n'Toller]

A Veterinary Behaviourist has generally completed post-graduate study in Animal Behaviour +/- completed a PhD related to Animal Behaviour.

They also hold a Membership in the Australian College of Veterinary Scientists in Animal Behaviour.

It is not *only* the fact that they can dispense medication, but it is an advantage that they can and do, also that they have the background knowledge to know when physiologically more medical testing is required (i.e. MRI, blood testing).

Whilst Trainers and non-Veterinary Behaviourists have insurance, or work under somebody elses, they need to exercise extreme caution when dealing with the cases you list in your first post. It is very easy to do a course and feel as though you can handle anything, and the reality is that if you are taken to court over mishandling a case, the Veterinary Behaviourist is the one who will be called as the expert opinion on your case and then you are literally up sh** creek.

I should clarify though that I am not just a volunteer instructor, I have been training in private clubs for years and doing many private lessons and have done the study as well. If I can't handle it, or I choose not to handle it for many and varied reasons- it goes straight to the Vet Behaviourist- then I'm happy to have the case back after their consultation, at their discretion and under their guidance of how the dog should be managed.

Mel.

[ILFC]

I went to both- to work on my boys S/A. They both said the same thing. The vet could dispense the medication. However, I was comforted at seeking the second opinion and that they both said the same things. I feel confident in my actions now. Just need to make sure I always keep up what I need to do.

[Kelpie-i]

Interesting question Cosmolo and one that I've thought about for a while.

If I can also pose a further question......

Vet behaviourist = x years of theory learning

Behavioural trainer = x years of practical learning

Which would you choose??

[jesomil]

I would purely go to someone because of their experience and ability to train and help dogs with problems regardless of what qualifications they have or what courses they may have done.

Some of the best have no qualifications at all!!

I think the practical learning is so much more important and would avoid a vet behaviourist completely.

[Kavik]

This is an interesting topic.

Like with a trainer, I think I would go on reputation and talk to previous clients to see what they thought. It might also depend on what the problem is, and whether you think medication is likely to be necessary. Obviously they will use different methods and come from a different background.

So far I have gone to a behavioural trainer and not a veterinary behaviourist, but have thought about going to a vet behaviourist just not gone through with it.

[helen]

Interesting question Cosmolo and one that I've thought about for a while.

If I can also pose a further question......

Vet behaviourist = x years of theory learning

Behavioural trainer = x years of practical learning

Which would you choose??

Your post seems to suggest to me that veterinary behaviourists have no practical experience which I would disagree with.

I have personally met 2 veterinary behaviourists. Trust me, their experience is not just years of theory learning - they work full time helping dogs with extreme problems and have the best of both worlds.

Edited July 20, 2007 by helen

[Working Dog Lover]

I think you have to be cautious, as mentioned, behavioural trainer could mean anything. I know someone who was given the wrong advice by a trainer, which resulted in the dog's behaviour deteriorating and the euthanasia of the dog.

Audrey

[jesomil]

I think the practical learning is so much more important and would avoid a vet behaviourist completely

I know i am quoting myself here , but maybe i made too big a call on that one. I have a friend who had a not so good experience with a vet behaviourist so that is more where i am coming from.

I have never seen a problem that cannot be helped by a very good, experienced trainer/behaviourist so i would see no need for the vet side. Just my thoughts .

Edited cause i cant spell either.

Edited July 20, 2007 by jesomil

[poodlefan]

I would probably lean towards the veterinary behaviouralist if I had to choose without knowing anything about the person's experience.

That said, I would ALWAYS be looking for a word of mouth recommendation about someone with a track record of success in the type of problem I sought help with.

As most of us have learned the hard way, you can have all the goods on paper but the proof of your skill lies in what you can do, not what you have studied.

[Kelpie-i]

Helen, my intention was not to discredit those vet behaviourists with both years of practical and theory learning, but merely to pose the question on whether people would choose theory over practical.

I too know 3 vet behaviourists who have many years experience in their field but provide the exact information to people that many behavioural trainers I also know do. The only difference in this case, is that vet behaviourists are able to prescribe drugs.

So it intrigues me that people are prepared to spend 100's of $$ to see a vet behaviourist when they can get the same information, minus the drugs with some very good behavioural trainers for a lot less money.

I would tend to agree with PF in that I would want to hear word of mouth recommendations, regardless of the letters at the end of the name.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

So it intrigues me that people are prepared to spend 100's of $$ to see a vet behaviourist when they can get the same information, minus the drugs with some very good behavioural trainers for a lot less money.

And those same "very good behavioural trainers" will refer on where appropriate - this is part of what makes them "very good".

I guess the client needs to weigh up the following possible scenario's and make a choice:-

1. Pay a Veterinary Behaviourist big $$$'s and take the punt that meds not required and that a Behaviourist trainer could have prescribed a behaviour modification program equally as well (in which case their financial outlay would have been considerably less).
   or
   
2. Pay a Behaviourist trainer a comparitively smaller amount and take the same punt as above (in which case they have chosen the most economical method). But if referred on through necessity, they have both fees to pay.
   

Out of all the clients I have seen I really haven't had to refer to a Vet Behaviourist save for once .... but the owners didn't take up this option due to the $$$'s involved. I have recommended Veterinary attention when I've suspected medical based issues, but that is completely different to the application of drugs to assist in psychological therapy.

[Cosmolo]

We have similar experience to you Erny, in that we have not needed to refer on unless there is a belief that a medical problem may be underlying in which case i actually prefer (in most cases) for the dog to see their own vet. I have discussed the possibility of medication at a later point with a few clients but in all of those cases it turned out that it was not required as we progressed with the training.

You all make some very good points. Working dog lover, i also know someone who was given incorrect information and drug therapy for a problem that could have resulted in euthanasia from a very well known veterinary behaviourist. Mis diagnosis and wrong advice is certainly not exclusive to trainers- a veterinary behaviorist can still make an error as anyone can.

[leopuppy04]

I would choose a veterinary behaviourist if I thought that I would require medication (well... the dog, not me !).

I wouldn't look at Vet vs Behaviourist - i'd look more on the credentials of each.

Remember a behaviourist could also have a bachelor degree, PhD's and the rest in animal behaviour/ psychology, but not in veterinary science.

Vet and Behaviour are so separate

[Kelpie-i]

I too have referred to a vet where the problem was believed to be medical but I must admit, I haven't had too many of these. However, if the problems are serious, I will always recommend a full vet check up to rule out anything medical related first as a safeguard.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Tapferhund]

As the old saying goes , "You get what you pay for" and personally if I had a dog with issues that I needed to see a behaviourist about , I would prefer to pay the extra and see someone like Dr. Robert Holmes ,who has years of practical experience, over a behavioural trainer who might have only had a few years of recent experience and who might have never been involved with dogs prior to their recent experience and training.