Poo Factory

[Eileen]

My almost-4-month staffy girl does 4-5 poos a day, but they are all very firm and relatively dark. (They're not stinky either). We feed her Hill's puppy small bites mixed with a bit of grated raw pumpkin or carrot and some type of green veg, plus a variety of chicken necks, brisket bones and occasionally lamb bones, sometimes a bit of sardines or tuna and a tiny drizzle of safflower oil or olive oil (this last was recommended by her breeder, cos after she'd been at our place for a couple of days her skin got a bit dry). Oh and she gets an egg yolk once a week.

Anyway, the puppy preschool lady and the vet both said Hill's was premium etc and meant less poos, etc, but she seems to be doing more - and I've noticed over the last couple of days they're getting bigger (longer, that is, sorry to be graphic, but I wanted to be clear).

It almost seems like she's pooing more than she's being fed, but her coat is beautiful and she doesn't look too thin. Am I just being paranoid?

[Staranais]

I wouldn't call Hills premium. It's better than some supermarket brands, but still not exactly premium.

I googled Hills puppy small bites for you, and the ingredients apparently are:

Corn meal, chicken by-product meal (including white meat, dark meat, liver and other internal organs), soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), dried beet pulp, brewers rice, vegetable oil, natural flavor, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (dicalcium phosphate, iodized salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E.

Corn meal, the first ingredient, isn't very digestible - i.e, it comes right out the other end! The 3rd, 5th and 6th ingredients are fillers too - i.e, come right out the other end.

My advice is to try switching her onto a more digestible food (slowly, so she doesn't get the runs), and see what happens. Something like Canidae is pretty good, if you definately want to feed kibble (first six ingredients are: Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat). Or else you could try a completely moist diet (I really like the "Butch" blue label dog roll, but not sure if you can get it in Oz.) Or you could try going all BARF/raw food.

Basically, the more digestible your dog's food is, then the less poo you should get (within reasonable limits, of course!)

[Poodle wrangler]

Does the vet sell the Hills?

I'm no food expert, but get on a few websites and compare ingredients. Hills has a premium price tag, but premium ingredients?

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Rice, Fish Oil, Flaxseed, Soybean Oil, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

(off the Hills Science diet website).

Corn's a grain that most dogs find difficult to digest. Popular in US foods due to their agricultural subsidy system producing an excess of corn (cheap).

"by-product" refers to all the yucky parts of the chicken, including diseased parts and the stuff off the floor (unfit for human consumption).

I think you can find a superior kibble in the supermarket .

The raw stuff you're feeding sounds fine. Some DOLers juice the veg to make it easier to digest.

I think the Hills is rubbish and it's the raw food and youth that's responsible for your dog looking good. If you do change dry food, just increase the new food gradually over a few days to minimise tummy upset :p . If you can't live with the Hills poos, I'm sure a local rescue would be grateful for the extra food.

[Eileen]

Does the vet sell the Hills?

Yes.

[Poodle wrangler]

Does the vet sell the Hills?

Yes.

I'm sorry to be cynical, but I don't agree with vets pushing commercial diets unless it's designed for a specific illness :shakehead: . It's preying on new dog owners who want to do the right thing by their dog. You'll pay a premium there, too, as vets don't have the purchasing power of pet suppliers. Many kibble brands have something for "sensitive" dogs.

Our local vet has the Hills there, and gives out the samples, but doesn't push it.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I agree with what's already been posted. To add some more thoughts:

A raw whole foods diet is what I feed my dogs on, and I find it provides excellent results for each of my dogs. Raw foods are fed as nature intended for the dog to digest most readily - dogs can't cook and many are not doing well on processed foods. Hills is a crap food, once you understand what the ingredients lists mean, you'll have to agree with that. Many vets push what they sell - they get excellent 'incentives' to sell this stuff so why wouldn't they try to convert all their clients? You can use a combination approach to feeding, many of us do that. But IMO a raw diet is optimum if you have the time and knowledge to prepare it yourself. If not, then I'd suggest a genuine super premium food such as Nutro, Dick van Patten's Natural Balance Organic Formulas, Eagle Pack (Holistic is an excellent range), Nutrience or even Royal Canin. All are genuinely super premium and offer great nutrition and excellent value for money.

If a dog is pooing to excess, it's b/c it isn't able to digest a certain portion of its food. Most dog food processors include a lot of fillers b/c they're cheap and in plentiful supply (not too many humans want to eat chicken feet or feathers, for example but put it in dog food and you have yourself a great profit-margin!), but dogs suffer as a result of eating stuff that isn't really offering optimum nutrition. What you're feeding except the Hills is a great start so keep doing that if you can. You can even give your dog the whole egg (and shell!) as long as it's only once a week or so.

Oh, congrats on your puppy! :p

[Miranda]

Hills is not a good food, a good dry food doesn't have corn as a first ingredient and definitely doesn't contain soy, neither of these ingredients are efficiently digested by dogs hence the large output of poo. Hills also contain BHA, BHT and propyl gallate, these chemicals are used to keep fats and oils from going rancid, but have also been known to act as carcinogens in studies done on rats.

Nutro Lamb and Rice and the Eagle Pack Holistic range are completely free of corn, soy and chemical preservatives, they are far superior in quality to any of the Hills products.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

We have five dogs and 4-5 poohs per day per dog would be

We feed Nutro, as the basis of their diet, and the stools are nice and firm, and generally we get two poohs per day one after each meal.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Hesapandabear

[Eileen]

OK I guess the general consensus so far is it is the Hills causing the excess poos. I was a little worried it might have been the oil. I'll look at some alternative dry food, cos even though I quite like giving her vegies etc, I'd like her to be used to eating dry food too.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

OK I guess the general consensus so far is it is the Hills causing the excess poos. I was a little worried it might have been the oil. I'll look at some alternative dry food, cos even though I quite like giving her vegies etc, I'd like her to be used to eating dry food too.

Can I ask why?

[Poodle wrangler]

? dry food is very convenient?

That + lack of freezer space is the reason I don't do an all-raw diet.

[Eileen]

OK I guess the general consensus so far is it is the Hills causing the excess poos. I was a little worried it might have been the oil. I'll look at some alternative dry food, cos even though I quite like giving her vegies etc, I'd like her to be used to eating dry food too.

Can I ask why?

Yes, of course! The main reason I make up her food, so if anything happened to me or I got sick or something and she was switched over to all dry food she wouldn't get a fright. Also when we go camping and stuff it would be good to take along dry food instead of all the bizz.

Also, and this is secondary, but I read on one of the threads here that you need to only feed 22% of protein compared to the rest of the puppy's diet so she doesn't get east-west feet (which I wasn't sure if I was being paranoid, but I thought maybe her feet stuck out a bit?)

[Eileen]

Update --- I read on another thread it is bad for the dog's digestive system to feed it mixed kibble with raw food in the same meal as it mucks up their digestion, as the two types of food are digested at different speeds. So, I thought maybe this is the reason for the extra poos? So am trialling feeding her the Hills kibble at one meal and the veges, meat etc at another and see if there is a reduction in poos. I am sure no-one is interested in this anymore, but I felt strangely compelled to post my discovery. Bloody addictive forum!