Guest Steph & Bam Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I'm still learning so please be patient with me When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. I'm sure there's something I'm doing wrong, I just don't know what... Any ideas? I can video it and post it once I have the net at home, I'll video one of him normally and one of him in 'drive'. I'll answer as much as I can if there are any questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 (edited) Hi S&B I am no expert in drive training, but the way you have explained your method leads me to think that you are "paying" for the position required, instead of using the drive to help the dog learn. In effect, you are "paying" the dog for a slow sit or drop. A cue word, of say "yes" for example, is used to mark correct response, followed by a sepperate drive satisfaction cue like "ok" or "free". From what I understand, it is important to use both of these cues in order for the dog to learn quickly. I use both cues while using food drive to train my dog with good success. Perhaps K9 is the best person to ask though. Edited July 18, 2007 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 ** bump ** I'd be interested to know the answer to K9 Force's question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm266 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I too know very little about drive training but the response you describe sounds like a working dog's response to stock. If you watch BCs or kelpies this is what they do when they are working. Very focused and slow exaggerated movement at times, but as I'm no expert I would be also interested to know if this a valid observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belijae Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I too know very little about drive training but the response you describe sounds like a working dog's response to stock. If you watch BCs or kelpies this is what they do when they are working. Very focused and slow exaggerated movement at times, but as I'm no expert I would be also interested to know if this a valid observation. This was my first thoughts too - my ACDx girl would do that during play too, but now dogdude and K9 Force have me wondering if thats not be the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I'm interested to hear the answer too. Please don't keep us in suspense, Steph & Bam! :p But from K9Force's question, then if the ball is being thrown, I'm wondering if the dog is sitting slowly because he's expecting to have to jump up again and run after the ball? So he doesn't relax into the sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steph & Bam Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase? Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. Sorry about the delay in my reply, I only have sporatic access to the internet, basically when I'm working late and it's quiet or at my OH's brother's place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase? Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. Sorry about the delay in my reply, I only have sporatic access to the internet, basically when I'm working late and it's quiet or at my OH's brother's place. I think you are changing the 'match' (game) rules too soon. You have a naturallly herding bred dog? But just in case I am wrong what bred is your dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steph & Bam Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase? Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. Sorry about the delay in my reply, I only have sporatic access to the internet, basically when I'm working late and it's quiet or at my OH's brother's place. I think you are changing the 'match' (game) rules too soon. You have a naturallly herding bred dog? But just in case I am wrong what bred is your dog? He's the one in my sig, an ACD mix. I'm not quite sure what you mean by changing the rules too quickly ;) It takes me about five weeks before i'll start trying to use the command during drive training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. K9: How does he know? Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. K9: raise your arm up with the drive training toy & see if he will get into action to go fetch it, if he does, he thinks that you have two cues, one is the "ready to go" & the other is the sight of the toy... When people run my drive training programs, I make sure they never thrw any balls/toys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steph & Bam Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. K9: How does he know? Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. K9: raise your arm up with the drive training toy & see if he will get into action to go fetch it, if he does, he thinks that you have two cues, one is the "ready to go" & the other is the sight of the toy... When people run my drive training programs, I make sure they never thrw any balls/toys... The only time he sees that toy is when I'm doing the drive work with him and all of his other ones are nothing like it. I took it out yesterday afternoon with me and didn't give the verbal cue, I raised it above my head as though I was about to throw it and he just sat there ears up, tail wagging. I got out a normal ball afterwards and repeated the same thing, and he got into action to chase after it. He hunkers down a little and you can see his muscles tighten like a spring when I do. K9, am I coming to the right assumption in that the fact that I am throwing balls for him to fetch may be throwing out his drive work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 When I get out Bam's drive toy (tennis ball on a longish elastic rope) and I tell him "let's go" he sort of freezes still, drooling and twitching, he does what I ask without taking his eyes off me for even a second, but his movements are incredibly exaggerated and very slow, for example if the command is sit (he's only gotten to sit and drop so far) he definately knows the meaning of sit and drop, and does them almost instantly (most of the time) normally, but as soon as I give the 'cue' he almost goes slow. the second his bum hits the ground he gets the toy, or the second he has fully dropped to the ground, but he sort of creeps his back legs under him slowly for sit, and very slowly creeps to the ground for drop. His tail is wagging like mad, his ears are completely up and forward, his eyes dont move from me, but it's almost like he's in a trance. If anything the more drive he seems to have the slower he goes. K9: have you in the past thrown the toy or ball for him to chase? Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. Sorry about the delay in my reply, I only have sporatic access to the internet, basically when I'm working late and it's quiet or at my OH's brother's place. I think you are changing the 'match' (game) rules too soon. You have a naturallly herding bred dog? But just in case I am wrong what bred is your dog? I am sorry I have not replied.............gee......um........I am more of a practical person, when training, not theory. As a result I find it very difficult to imagine what you and your dog are doing. I wish I could help explain what I do, but at every given second, once focus is achieved, then control etc my tactics change, with each of my dogs. Heck, I have a hard time explaining the difference of a correction and punishment for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Not this one, this toy he has only ever had during drive training. he does get balls thrown for him, but he knows the difference between them and the drive toy. K9: How does he know? Plus when he's getting balls thrown for him he doesn't get the command of "let's go". I have clicker & marker trained him. I use 'Yes' as the marker word and he knows the clicker too. I teach him the command first with the clicker and marker word, make sure he has it down pat, then I consider it's usefulness in the drive training to see if it's going to be useful or not. K9: raise your arm up with the drive training toy & see if he will get into action to go fetch it, if he does, he thinks that you have two cues, one is the "ready to go" & the other is the sight of the toy... When people run my drive training programs, I make sure they never thrw any balls/toys... The only time he sees that toy is when I'm doing the drive work with him and all of his other ones are nothing like it. I took it out yesterday afternoon with me and didn't give the verbal cue, I raised it above my head as though I was about to throw it and he just sat there ears up, tail wagging. I got out a normal ball afterwards and repeated the same thing, and he got into action to chase after it. He hunkers down a little and you can see his muscles tighten like a spring when I do. K9, am I coming to the right assumption in that the fact that I am throwing balls for him to fetch may be throwing out his drive work? K9: I dont know how much you know about training in drive or what other steps you have put in, but, I only allow access to one toy, my drive toy & only when I have it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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