Is There A Point

[ILFC]

Sorry Am ...... but loved the way you worded this.

Glad I gave you a laugh. It's really not that funny when you're actually there, though!

So do you belive that there is a hope for his full rehabilitation and cure, to the point that you will be able to take him off lead in a large group of dogs and let him mingle? and lets add a toy amongst this for the difficulty :D

Nope! Not ever! I'd love to say yes, but it's just not going to happen for us, with or without the toy.

Though he does have a few dogfriends that he is safe around, they are without exception very very submissive dogs with great "calming signals". He will never be able to be safely allowed offleash in a bunch of strange dogs, since he simply can't cope with normal canine interaction.

The last few years I have been concentrating on teaching him to ignore other dogs and focus on me instead. We've currently started competitive obedience classes and are doing great working on or offleash, a reasonable distance away from other well controlled dogs, so that strategy seems to be working fine for us. However, his improved focus does not mean he's any safer with strange dogs if I let him freely mingle with them and decide how he wants to behave with them (yes, that's the voice of sad experience talking there...) If he gets an opportunity to start a fight, he normally takes it. To be safe around other dogs, his focus needs to be on me.

My goal is to have him be able to focus on me and work even if we are encountered by slightly rude or pushy dogs (not genuinely threatening dogs, just ones that might normally tempt him to launch an attack, e.g ones that sniff his butt, get close to his face, etc).

I take my hat off to you ! I could not manage this situation at all- I simply do not have the skills- so well done. It sounds like you have done and are doing a lot of hard work. I'm also sad for you; it must be quite stressful at times. One question I would love to know the answer to is; why do some dogs over dominate when faced with an extremely submissive dog? e.g. dog has rolled over, is licking at the face of the dominant one but the dominant dog e.g. growls or humps the submissive one?

[leopuppy04]

I don't think untrainable is a good word to use because in theory all dogs can be trained unless there is a physiological disfunction. Just because a dog is capable of learning/ being trained- that doesn't necesarily mean that it is practical or reasonable to do so. And this is where lies the grey area- what is reasonable and practical for one person will not be so for another.

This is a great point. Someone else may be able to work through the problem, yet the current family that it is with is not in the position to do so, nor can they find it an appropriate home. Sometimes, rather than casting it out of the family completely and not allowing the dog a life it could have had or that the family wanted to give it, euthanasia might be the only option, however hard the decision might be.

Myszka:

Someone I spoke to recently said - why bother saving a dog with serious issues like human agression, put it to sleep and get one with no issues.

Apart from the emotional problem the owner might have what do you people think about this statement?

I agree with Cosmo on this also - you can't take away/ dismiss human emotion that easily - it is too hard a decision to make! Also - it might be the owner/ handler causing the probem and thus getting another dog will just result in another poor soul ending the same way. I guess you always have to judge each situation differently and in terms of family lifestyle etc. I don't think there can be a blanket statement for anything in dog training

[MonElite]

I agree that for the owner its impossible to take away the emotional attachement to the dog, but the person that said it didnt have the attachement.

IloveFlatCoats - what would you be doing if you had Am...'s dog? Theoretically that is.

Seek skills, rehome the dog?

[Staranais]

Hey, Flatcoat's not getting my dog!

Seriously though, I think it is an emotional decision. I love my dog, there are so many great things about him, and have learned so much by training him, I'd never give him up for such a small thing as dog aggression.

Other people in this situation might not feel so attached to the dog, or might have zero interest in dog training, or might just feel no obligation to help him (since he was adopted as an adult who already had problems) so would not want to work with the dog. That's OK too. Although I can't imagine you would be able to rehome him (so many nice staffies in the pound, who'd want a DA one, unless they were the sort of dropkicks who are interested in dog fighting?) Only other alternatives would prob be responsible management (never ever let him near a strange dog) or euthanasia.

[RottnBullies]

Someone I spoke to recently said - why bother saving a dog with serious issues like human agression, put it to sleep and get one with no issues.

Apart from the emotional problem the owner might have what do you people think about this statement?

My dog's not aggressive towards people (just a little warey sometimes), but I had a lady at the dog park ask what the point of owning a dog is if he can't be safely around other dogs. She didn't mean any harm, but it hurt a lot to think about it that way and I burst into tears on the walk home.

So I don't think saying that kind of thing is constructive at all. There's no such thing as a perfect dog so it's not up to someone else to judge if it's "worth" putting up with an issue as everyone has different levels of tolerance for different things. I'd love my dog to not be aggressive, but since he doesn't pull clothes off the line, bark much, hump things, get anxiety, cause problems at the vet or chew my shoes I figure he's not all bad!

It does no good at all to focus on the negatives as it gives you less motivation to work towards positives.

I agree with you here, I also love the fact you mentioned " No such thing as a perfect dog" but I have to keep reminding myself every day

I would also draw the line at human aggression, only because I'm having a hard time with a DA dog, so I wouldn't know where to begin with It,

but also on the same hand I'm not In that position, so who knows If I was It If that would change my decission?

Amhailte, you give me hope Would you like to swap dogs

[MonElite]

I love my dog, there are so many great things about him, and have learned so much by training him, I'd never give him up for such a small thing as dog aggression.

ditto

No such thing as a perfect dog

but mine are

[Staranais]

Amhailte, you give me hope Would you like to swap dogs

No way! And you might not ask such a thing, if you actually met my dog during one of his aggressive hissy fits.

[bloss344]

Seriously though, I think it is an emotional decision. I love my dog, there are so many great things about him, and have learned so much by training him, I'd never give him up for such a small thing as dog aggression.

You've summed up exactly how I feel about Bob. There are days when I wish it just would all stop, and he'd act like a 'normal' dog, but I'd never give him up. I'm sure Bob was put on this Earth to teach me so much.

[Cosmolo]

Thanks for agreeing LP To give another example, our latest dog (who's story is in treating fear/ anxiety) we chose to take on knowing she had massive issues and that this was her last shot. We didn't have an emotional attachment at the time but chose to take her anyway as we truly believed we could help her.

People had created her problems and we happened to be people who were there, in the right place at the right time, in a position to help her. I think it would have been remiss of us, given the skills and knowledge sets we had and desire to have another dog, not to take her- but that doesn't mean she would have been suitable for any other available homes- she got lucky, and so did we.

[ILFC]

I agree that for the owner its impossible to take away the emotional attachement to the dog, but the person that said it didnt have the attachement.

IloveFlatCoats - what would you be doing if you had Am...'s dog? Theoretically that is.

Seek skills, rehome the dog?

People agression- I would PTS- after seeking many opinions and trying everything I can. If I caused it- I would be sick at heart and be extremely unlikely to get another dog. DA; I would have to deal with what I had, I suppose. Try my best, consult professions; whatever it took. I would not rehome or PTS. However, i would be very upset and actually devasted (judging by my reactions with Grover's separation anxiety). If I took on the dog as a rescue, I would not feel guilty at all (as to causing the DA). If I had a dog that developed it- yes I would feel guilty and try my hardest to overcome or modify the behaviour. I don't know if I would enjoy my dog as much though- a lot of what we do with Grover is social and you would have to be so careful. It would be tiring.

[Erny]

I don't know if I would enjoy my dog as much though- a lot of what we do with Grover is social and you would have to be so careful. It would be tiring.

I understand you are talking about "you" and what "you" would or might do as was requested you do. However, I think it would be fairly clearly understood that unless you're ever in the situation where you need to care, manage and train a "special needs" (so to speak - I'm sure there's a better description) dog, I doubt that anyone could really know.

And you might find that although some social activities might need to be curtailed to whatever extent, there are other factors such as learning; rejoicing in the successful and progressive steps of rehabilitation; challenges; etc. that will counter a perceived loss of social interaction with others and their dogs - interaction that doesn't necessarily mean "none" but perhaps simply "controlled".

This is not to suggest I wish for everyone to have the experience of a dog with issues - but I can vouch that when or if you do, there is the possibility for something different, something at a much deeper level, that you can come to understand and share with your dog.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I also know of a very good trainer who told of a dog he met that he regarded as untrainable. As I understand it, the dog's fear levels were SO VERY VERY EXTREME that there was no circumstance where the dog wasn't afraid in the extreme sense of the word.

I have heard a trainer I really respect say that with some forms of SA, the dog suffers so much with the stress that if the SA can't be reduced or managed so the dog has quality of life, the better thing to do is end its suffering.

Basically she was saying that severe mental damage or illness should be taken very seriously, not just for the aggravation to humans who have to put up with the manifestation of it, but out of concern for the dog.

Speaking for myself, it must be grim to be a dog with severe SA. If I couldn't help that dog, and couldn't find anyone who could, I think that would be a point where I would end it.

[jaybeece]

I agree with you here, I also love the fact you mentioned " No such thing as a perfect dog" but I have to keep reminding myself every day

Hehe me too Sometimes it pays to talk to other dog owners to find out what their dogs do that drives them up the wall!

I remember sitting down on a bench with the dog at the dog park one day, balling my eyes out because I was so tired and sad about it all when another dog owner wandered up to talk to me. He owned a lovely, albeit hyper, border collie.

We chatted for a bit and he admitted he was having a terrible time with his dog inside the house and in the car. Whenever she was contained she'd go out of her mind, regardless of how much exercise she got or what they tried. Taking her to the vet was a traumatic experience for everyone involved too.

I won't forget that moment, because it was one of a few when I've looked over at my dog an silently thanked him for being so easy to deal with despite his aggression problems.

[ILFC]

I don't know if I would enjoy my dog as much though- a lot of what we do with Grover is social and you would have to be so careful. It would be tiring.

I understand you are talking about "you" and what "you" would or might do as was requested you do. However, I think it would be fairly clearly understood that unless you're ever in the situation where you need to care, manage and train a "special needs" (so to speak - I'm sure there's a better description) dog, I doubt that anyone could really know.

And you might find that although some social activities might need to be curtailed to whatever extent, there are other factors such as learning; rejoicing in the successful and progressive steps of rehabilitation; challenges; etc. that will counter a perceived loss of social interaction with others and their dogs - interaction that doesn't necessarily mean "none" but perhaps simply "controlled".

This is not to suggest I wish for everyone to have the experience of a dog with issues - but I can vouch that when or if you do, there is the possibility for something different, something at a much deeper level, that you can come to understand and share with your dog.

Yep- I agree with you Enry and as you said, I was talking about what I would do (in answer to a question by someone else). But the sheer effort and stress involved is so hard- even with Grover's SA- which is under control the minute we remember our leadership roles. That's probably what I'm thinking- if I can't even handle that- how could I manage an agression problem? I think it gets easier with practise? as we easily stepped up our leadership this time and the barking has greatly reduced already. Maybe that's how I would handle a DA problem. What I would find easier is making a conscious decision to take on a dog with problems- I would be committed from the start. What I would find very upsetting (and many poor people have posted about this) is their dog developing agression from being attacked for example. I would have to put in the work- but I know myself- I would be very stressed about it.

[Alpha]

Hi LP ;)

Thought provoking thread, but I think to a big degree the answer to your question is subjective. I need to ask what you mean (in this instance) by "trainable". Trainable to a manageable level? Trainable to a "cure"?

Purely trainable to a manageable level - I too don't think that there can be a complete 'cure' for the dog - but appropriate management can be achieved.

I agree with this comment...training to a manageable level or even a level where the dog "switches on" for work but you would still have to be cautious at other times. Have been there, done that and know someone with a now retired UD titled dog which could not cope with being approached by strangers due to maltreatment by previous owners but could work a ring, be approached by any judge or steward once in a ring..out of the ring a different story, very aggro. Yes, it is a lot of work on top of just training and teaching them the routines, you also have to have eyes in the back of your head and judge a class as you approach and ascertain where you will place you and your dog in the line up. Much of it comes naturally after a while and just is second nature, if you never know anything different ( and I did not until my second dog ) then it's just how it is for you and your dog.