Is There A Point

[leopuppy04]

Just curious...

Do you think there is a point where a dog is 'untrainable' for whatever reason.

Not in the sense of pet dog training - but more in terms of behavioural issues - do you think that there is a point where, without causing much heartache and stress to the family that you would think it kinder on the family and dog if it were PTS?

If so - where would you draw the line? Or is that something for the individual dog and family?

Or - do you think that for every problem preventative training and medication could help any dog live a relatively normal & happy life?

[poodlefan]

Yep.

Any aggression towards people that's resulted in a bite and can't be safely managed. By 'safely managed' I'd eliminate any family with children.

But there are other cases too. With behavioural issues, I think there are so many variables and the biggest one is the ability and motivation of the owner and their family to work with professional to deal with issues. Some people are up to the challenge and can create the right environment and others simply aren't.

[leopuppy04]

Yep.

Any aggression towards people that's resulted in a bite and can't be safely managed. By 'safely managed' I'd eliminate any family with children.

But there are other cases too. With behavioural issues, I think there are so many variables and the biggest one is the ability and motivation of the owner and their family to work with professional to deal with issues. Some people are up to the challenge and can create the right environment and others simply aren't.

Do you think it makes them a *bad* owner if they notice their shortcomings and say 'for the sanity of this family and the dog we feel it better if we end it now'.... or do you consider it a *brave* decision???

[poodlefan]

Leo, sometimes I consider it to be the only responsible decision to make. If you simply can't deal with an issue (I'm usually thinking aggression) and it's a safety issue then rehoming is out of the question most of the time.

What other decision is there? Much as I love dogs, no dog is worth compromising the safety of your family.

That said, I think some people will take the easy option with behavioural issues that ARE capable of being resolved.

ETA: Have you got a scenario in mind?

This is actually a question I've asked a couple of trainers I respect. "Was there ever a dog you worked with that you thought was beyond help?" I asked. One trainer said yes. Large breed dog, extremely dog and people aggressive with very passive owner.. the dog was bad enough but the owner was simply overwhelmed by the issues and judged herself incapable of dealing with it - she was terrified her dog would hurt someone, possibly her. The trainer thought it possible.

In another home, the dog may never have got to that point or may have been better managed and dealt with.. but that's not the situation the trainer was dealing with.

Edited July 17, 2007 by poodlefan

[leopuppy04]

ETA: Have you got a scenario in mind?

No particular scenario in mind, just something going through my head. I have much the same sentiments as you.

I guess it stems from the fact as, not being in the situation, I don't know how far I would/ could go. I know that I wouldn't be able to plod through as many do on DOL - there are some truly dedicated dog owners on here! Looking at it from my perspective, if it was 'harming' the relationship between the dog and myself and I didn't feel that I could work with the fight anymore, sometimes I see it as kinder to end the situation for all concerned.

[MonElite]

Someone I know had recently put a dog to sleep for agression. This person gave A LOT to the dog, and in my opinion made the right decision. the dog was lovely, good looking with few issues, but large breed and if this dog did something the consequences would have been tragic.

A behaviourist that the person contacted originally said its possible to cure the dog, the owner did a lot of work with the dog, with very little results. Im not sure if thats the case but potentially the ongoing costs of the behavioursts help was an issue.

Perhaps for someone that is a trainer or behaviourist this dog was curable, for the owner it wasnt.

I admire the owner for making this decision I know the dog was loved, but as poodlefan said - no dog is worth risking human wellbeing.

[Staranais]

Theoretically, I think few dogs are untrainable. Perhaps some dogs with behaviour problems stemming from incurable medical issues, or dogs that completely missed out on any sort of socialisation during critical periods, could be considered untrainable. Apart from that, I find it hard to believe that most dogs are not able to make behavioural progress using one training method or another.

What I do think is that there are often situations where there are not enough resources to train an otherwise trainable dog. Not everyone has enough time, enough money, enough knowledge, enough patience, to retrain a severely problematic dog. Some people have ethical issues to the type of training a dog needs ("rather put a dog to sleep than use an e-collar" etc).

And like Poodlefan says, some people have children or elderly relatives, unreliable flatmates, or other pets, which can make an otherwise trainable dog into a huge liability. A small aggressive dog might be regarded as "trainable", unless you had young children. A stock chasing dog in a rural district might be too high a risk to be considered "trainable". Closer to home, in a multi-dog household with owners who weren't dedicated to crate-and-rotate, my male stafford might be regarded as too high a risk to be "trainable".

I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I believe almost every dog is trainable, it's not always possible or practical for someone to train them.

I'm by no means a professional behaviourist though, so I could be dead wrong.

[Ms James]

What about genetic aggression? Is that something that's cureable? I'd be interested in what the trainers have to say on this, interesting topic! :cool:

I know with my problem child I haven't given up on curbing his wild ways (he's dog aggressive) and I'd go to the ends of the earth to help him overcome this and even though improvement is slow, there *is* improvement. I think no improvement in cases like my guy's is probably more a reflection on me and my training skills (or lack thereof, or lack of motivation etc etc) than anything else. That being said, he's shown that with a trainer he can behave perfectly in any given situation - he was put into one of those training kennels & they basically had a ball with him & he showed absolutely zero aggression after one day (he was there a week). That means that now I have to be able to learn to replicate that which is a long & slow process for me considering I've only been a dog owner for 18 months! If ever it got to the point that I couldn't ever cope with him because of my terrible handling skills, I'd be left with two options: never take him outside unless I was guaranteed there'd be no dogs around or rehome him with a trainer or extremely competent handler. At this time, both these scenarios are waaaaay on the backburner & it would have to be an extreme circumstance for me to seriously consider these options - I won't give up on him or me until I have irrefutable proof that I'm crap at handling him and have exhausted all possibilities. I'd never, ever, ever have him PTS, that option would be unacceptable to me.

Now, where I *have* given up is teaching my other dog, Bella, to catch food in her mouth. I've resigned myself to accept the fact that she'll always just watch the food bounce off her nose *sigh*

[dogdude]

I tend to agree with Amhailte Also, some obsessive compulsive behaviours can be impossible to remedy as I understand it.

[Erny]

Hi LP

Thought provoking thread, but I think to a big degree the answer to your question is subjective. I need to ask what you mean (in this instance) by "trainable". Trainable to a manageable level? Trainable to a "cure"? As you refer to aggression as the hypothetical situation, Steve (K9 Force) answered this well in another thread -:

K9 Force :

A "cure" is known as total rehabilitation & will not always be possible dependant on many factors from genetics, age of the dog when rehab begins, the age the dog was when it started displaying symptoms, how long the problem has been there untreated to the dedication of the dogs owner.

So I guess the answer to your question depends on the dog's current situation at the time and boils back down to how willing and how well the owners are able to handle and manage the behaviour during behaviour modification (which is likely to be ongoing).

ETA: I have met with a dog whose owners wanted to re-home. The dog is human aggressive. I believe the dog could improve with time and training by those owners. But I could not comfortably or ethically suggest the dog is suitable for re-homing.

I also know of a very good trainer who told of a dog he met that he regarded as untrainable. As I understand it, the dog's fear levels were SO VERY VERY EXTREME that there was no circumstance where the dog wasn't afraid in the extreme sense of the word.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Erny

[JulesP]

My parents had to put a dog down once. They had done the dog school thing since doggie was a pup. The vet had tried drugs. Doggie was always very nervy, didn't like going on walks even. He bit everyone in the family. he bit my dad really badly one day for no good reason. I really think that there was something wrong with that dog and that they did everything they could do if it was a behavioural problem to fix it. So I think that when a 'behavioural' problem is caused by either a genetic or physically problem then that needs to be recognized. And if the resulting behaviour is aggression then sometimes a hard decision has to be made.

[jesomil]

I agree with what Amhailte says.

I think the owner has so much to do with whether the dog can get trained. If we were all natural, fantastic dog trainers there would be many less problems around.

ETA I was editing to quote something great that Erny said but then it disappeared as she edited it out of her post . It was very confusing for a minute!!

Edited July 17, 2007 by jesomil

[leopuppy04]

Hi LP

Thought provoking thread, but I think to a big degree the answer to your question is subjective. I need to ask what you mean (in this instance) by "trainable". Trainable to a manageable level? Trainable to a "cure"?

Purely trainable to a manageable level - I too don't think that there can be a complete 'cure' for the dog - but appropriate management can be achieved.

Everyones responses are interesting...

It would in a big way come down to family circumstance and training - so in terms of the re-homing - say the dog had moderate issues (not specifically aggression, any kind), but the current family couldn't care for it (young kids, FT working etc,etc).... would you consider a very 'special' rehoming to the right family who were willing to work through (the perfectly manageable) issues??

[ILFC]

Sometimes the constant costs of behaviouralists are prohibitive too. I understand their pricing and believe that you get what you pay for (and I am very happy with ours) but it may not be an option for some people. However, we would have made zero progress on Grover's problems without one and she even recommended us to a great vet. The costs of the visits and medications are quite high though. Not everyone can factor these kind of costs in when they buy a dog. We didn't even know that these kind of issues existed before Grover so would have had great difficulty in planning for them.

[Erny]

... in terms of the re-homing - say the dog had moderate issues (not specifically aggression, any kind), but the current family couldn't care for it (young kids, FT working etc,etc).... would you consider a very 'special' rehoming to the right family who were willing to work through (the perfectly manageable) issues??

Without having specific details and circumstances available to me, my "in general" answer to this would have to be "yes". But each case would need to be considered on its own merits. Provided it is humane to do so and where it is possible and measureably safe to do so, I always err on the side of rehabilitation rather than death.

[Steve K9Pro]

LP: Do you think there is a point where a dog is 'untrainable' for whatever reason.

K9: Yes, of course...

Not in the sense of pet dog training - but more in terms of behavioural issues - do you think that there is a point where, without causing much heartache and stress to the family that you would think it kinder on the family and dog if it were PTS?

K9: certainly, factors such as the time the family has available, the risk the dog poses to the family etc etc..

If so - where would you draw the line?

K9: I personally dont draw the line at the dogs actions, I draw it dependant on the complete pack situation.

Or is that something for the individual dog and family?

K9: yep exactly that...

Or - do you think that for every problem preventative training and medication could help any dog live a relatively normal & happy life?

K9: no, genetics & the dogs health can play a major role.

I have been brought some of the worst dogs on the planet, & taken on dogs that many other turn away & have a very high succss rate. There have been dogs brought to me that werent that bad in terms of problem size, but I recommended euthanasia as the situation was not a workable one...

**********************

LP: Do you think it makes them a *bad* owner if they notice their shortcomings and say 'for the sanity of this family and the dog we feel it better if we end it now'.... or do you consider it a *brave* decision???

K9: I am not a fan of those who say "its best for the dog that we put to sleep". Its never best for the dog, it might be the only option or the smartest decision...

PF: What other decision is there? Much as I love dogs, no dog is worth compromising the safety of your family.

K9: Agreed, I have had people come to me that were incapable of carrying out the training, for reasons such as thy feared the dog...

One such case was when I met the client at the gate, I asked where the dog was, she said it was in her car & she began to cry & said she was frightened to get the dog from the car.

This owner + this dog = no win...

This dog + capable owner = good chance..

MJ: What about genetic aggression? Is that something that's cureable? I'd be interested in what the trainers have to say on this, interesting topic!

K9: When doing my time as a novice trainer I was with a behaviourist who was called out to a shelter to assess some dogs..

These dogs had been seized by the Police from a dog fighting organisation.

There were 5 pups, their mother & a large male, breed is not important.

We did the assessment on the male, it was thought with some work he could be rehabbed, but there was a high risk.

We ran out of time & returned the next day.

There were only three pups left, they had killed the other two pups & they had attacked the mother when feeding & opened her up quite badly.

They were 7 weeks old...

We took one out & it wriggled & was constantly aggressive, it was a while ago & the technique the Behaviourist used was to put the pups head under water so that it would stop being aggressive when its life was slipping away.

It never stopped fighting him, he pulled it out & advised the pups be euthanised.

The dogs they were bred from were trained fighters for generations. There was nothing good left in these genetics.

ILFC: Sometimes the constant costs of behaviouralists are prohibitive too.

K9: Agreed, but often someone honest will let you know your chances of success very quickly.

[Erny]

ETA I was editing to quote something great that Erny said but then it disappeared as she edited it out of her post . It was very confusing for a minute!!

Sorry about that, Jesomil :cool:

I edited it out because I thought it had the potential to offend some, but to whom the sentence was NOT directed.

[Ms James]

K9: When doing my time as a novice trainer I was with a behaviourist who was called out to a shelter to assess some dogs..

These dogs had been seized by the Police from a dog fighting organisation.

There were 5 pups, their mother & a large male, breed is not important.

We did the assessment on the male, it was thought with some work he could be rehabbed, but there was a high risk.

We ran out of time & returned the next day.

There were only three pups left, they had killed the other two pups & they had attacked the mother when feeding & opened her up quite badly.

They were 7 weeks old...

We took one out & it wriggled & was constantly aggressive, it was a while ago & the technique the Behaviourist used was to put the pups head under water so that it would stop being aggressive when its life was slipping away.

It never stopped fighting him, he pulled it out & advised the pups be euthanised.

The dogs they were bred from were trained fighters for generations. There was nothing good left in these genetics.

My dog, that was just heartbreaking to read.

[Lablover]

While reading this thread, I wonder if dogs could suicide what the numbers would be? Poor darlings who are fearful.

[bloss344]

While reading this thread, I wonder if dogs could suicide what the numbers would be? Poor darlings who are fearful.

Would they realise though? I don't think Bob knows he's not "normal". He just "is".