Formal Retrive - Mouthing

[LilBailey]

Hi all,

I want to trial my Border and so long as I do it right she should be good, I have been teaching her some of the higher class eliments so that it is more fun for both her and me, plus that way when I eventully start entering her she will not have a head start when I get to those classes

I have started her on a metal object (a butter knife) and she is happy to pick that up and hold it in her mouth. I need a set of articals before I can do much more with this as the butter knife is to flat and light, I also want to fix this mouthing problem.

I want to start the dumbell but I don't want her to get bad habits so I thought I would come here and ask.

When ever she has something in her mouth she fiddles with it and either keeps it from me or throws it at me. I want to teach her to hold it properly but how do I do this?

Also is there a certain size that the dumbell needs to be? where do I get one from and where do I get the sent articals from?

Edited July 12, 2007 by LilBailey

[RealityBites]

I am about to start trying the same thing, so have no advice will watch this thread with interest tho.

I found this site:

http://www.callicoma.com.au/

They have dumbells AND scent discrimination articles. Hope that helps!

[Dogs4Fun]

I don't do any retrieving until the dog can do a gentle hold of the item. The retrieve bit can otherwise be just too exciting and you can get a very mouthy dog.

Work in tiny stages.

A quiet hold first.

Learning to reach for the item, gradually progressing to picking the item up from the floor.

Short (initially one step) recalls with the item in the mouth.

Finally moving away one step to get the item, then gradually increasing.

Remember what your final criteria are all the way along - don't let bad habits creep in.

And training each type of item will require you to start the process again, but progress will usually be much faster each time (until you try gloves ).

[Staranais]

I own the mouther from hell.

I got two destroyed dumbbells before I found a way to teach a consistantly nice quiet hold with no mouthing. In the last couple of months, I've been teaching him to retrieve a scent cloth, in preparation for the scent discrimination exercise, and that was was really ugly to start with too. He seems to have a natural inclination to not only mouth each retrieve item, but to chew it, rip it apart, and shake it until it is stone dead (well, he is a staffy!).

First piece of advice I give you is the same as what Dogs4fun said - teach the hold first, and never accept mouthing. I used the clicker method, so I started by asking for a half second hold, and clicked/rewarded before he could even think about mouthing. Next time, I asked for a whole second hold. Build up the time really slowly, giving her consistant feedback on what she is doing. If she starts to mouth or spits it out before you reach for it, immediately let her know that you are not pleased by providing a negative consequence - for us, this was me giving a no reward marker and then ending the training session for a few minutes - then make it a little easier next time so she acheives sucess. It took my dog months before he properly understood what I wanted from him, but now he performs the formal retrieve with a consistantly calm mouth.

Second piece of advice is something I learned from K9 Force, and it's pure gold. That is to make sure the dumbbell retrieve isn't its own reward. If your dog is retrieving for the fun of it, she'll quite likely try to enhance the game - mouth on the dumbbell, play with it, perhaps not want to give it back to you. So it's important to make sure the dog is retrieving in order to earn something that it wants much more than the dumbbell (to earn a game of tug for example, if your dog is toy motivated) so she has no incentive to play with the dumbbell or keep it from you.

Good luck!

Edited July 12, 2007 by Amhailte

[LilBailey]

I'm guessing it will take a long while for her to learn it thats why I want to start now I just wasn't sure how.

Amhailte: Your boy sounds a bit like Flea with the chew, shake, kill thing. Thats why I havn't given her a dumbell yet so hopefully she won't learn to play with it.

[Lablover]

Hope your dog does not throw the knives at you.

Where in the sticks are you?

There are a few ways to achieve a calm mouth.

[LilBailey]

Snake Valley, Just out of Balarat. My Uncle lives in brunswick and always said our house when we were growing up was out in the sticks. LOL that was in Hastings so I wonder what he would say about this place.

[Sayreovi]

Generally the dog clubs sell them.

I got my dumbell and articles from my club.

[dogdude]

Hi LilBailey

Because there are many small elements to getting the formal retrieve, including the final product of a full length retrieve, off lead, with distractions, your dog would ideally be at a stage where he can do that (be off lead under full control), otherwise, it will not really end up a formal retrieve.

I would also be starting off with a correctly fitting dumbell, and not small articals. If anything, they will encourage mouthing. The other thing that causes mouthing is wrong use of food as reward. Anticipation of food very often starts them throwing it around in the mouth.

The length of the crossbar of the dumbell should be around the same width of your dogs muzzle.

The ends of the dumbell should be high enough off the ground so that your dog can comfortably get its bottom jaw under. This can be very important with some dogs in the learning stages.

This is a complex exercise to teach properly, so I suggest that you learn from somebody hands on, who has trained more than one dog to do it. If you know what you are doing, it can take you little more than a week to have a good retrieve, depending on what method you choose.

Teaching the basic hold even, has plenty of do's and dont's, so again, you will be better off learning hands on from an experienced trainer.

P.S If you have a contact for a wood turner, you can get a dumbell made to measure. It will be a little more expensive, but much better than the crap that they sell in dog schools. Most factorys that make staircases have woodturners working in them.

Edited July 12, 2007 by dogdude

[Arya]

One thing I have found with help for mouthers is timing of rewards for correct behaviour must be spot on. Tell the dog to hold the dumbell calmly in its mouth (I say 'hold it!) and reward with marker word and instant removal the second the dog has it sitting perfectly still. Then extend the period that the dog is holding the dumbell still before releasing with the marker and reward. If you work without a marker word to release the dog this would be hard to do but I use marker word all the time anyway (or clicker for people who like clicker!!!). So then you can 'capture' the exact way you want the dog to hold the dumbell or whatever they are holding and they quickly get it and keep the thing still so they get marker and reward:) My dog holds lots of objects besides the dumbell and she started with a basket actually, not a dumbell. The more different objects they hold the better and more dexterous they become at picking anything up, all materials imho. Start as soon as possible and make it really FUN FUN FUN!!! for the dog

[Lablover]

Snake Valley small world. I have a cottage booked there, due the state championship and national being in the area, later this year.

In fact, stayed at Cape Clear a couple of weeks ago, while again trialling.

[LilBailey]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Dog Dude: I don't go to an dog club (only a flyball club) we have lets say a differents of opion on lots of things so that I don't really have any one around to ask.

Arya: I do use a marker word and a clicker. I wasn't fond of the clicker till I noticed how fast she could learn something when I had my mouth shut LOL. I now think I might not use the dumbell to teach 'hold' ( I did plan to use the word) What do you think the easiest thing for a dog to hold and not mouth??

Lablover: What national is being held in the area. Pardon my confusion.