Guidance, Adjustments And Timing.....

[dogdude]

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless).

Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act. I am forever hearing things like.......... "are you happy with that sit"? etc, and I am thinking..... "no, but its too late to worry about it now!"

Many choose to straighten afterwards by moving the dog up out of position, then guiding into correct position.

If you are one of those people, I am interested in your thoughts on the matter?

[Staranais]

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless).

Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act.

I do both.

If I catch my dog in the act of doing something incorrectly, I will interrupt him, then ask for it again or guide him into the right position, then praise.

If I'm too late to catch him mucking up, for example he's done a finish and sat too far back before I realised, then I will often tell him "uh-uh", gently move him into the correct position, then praise him for being there. He seems to understand that.

The only thing I think is unhelpful is rewarding a dog while being in the wrong position - at least, unless you are deliberately teaching just the bare bones of the exercise with the intention of polishing the details later. For example, when I was first teaching the auto-sit in heel, I praised and rewarded whenever his butt hit the ground at the right time, even if he was a bit crooked. I only started to straighten him up when I was sure he understood the concept of sitting whenever we stopped. Otherwise he would just have been confused and frustrated, and probably lost interest in the whole thing, since I was so hard to please!

Edited July 10, 2007 by Amhailte

[leopuppy04]

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless).

Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act. I am forever hearing things like.......... "are you happy with that sit"? etc, and I am thinking..... "no, but its too late to worry about it now!"

Many choose to straighten afterwards by moving the dog up out of position, then guiding into correct position.

If you are one of those people, I am interested in your thoughts on the matter?

I guess I kind of do, but with a key step in-between. If my dog offers me a yucky position, I simply give a NRM and ask for the position again. I do this also if they are too slow going down etc. They don't get what they want if they don't do what I want (properly and fast).... If it took me long enough to realise and someone had to say to me 'are you happy with that sit' it *is* too late, as you have already passed the point of timing etc.

Alternatively - i'll give a NRM and ignore, NRM and then come back to it later... it really depends on the situation....

I tend not to use my hands unless the dog is consistently making the same error whereby i'll gently guide them into the correct position.

I hope that makes sense!

[dogdude]

Ok, some interesting points to think about,............ but.....

Do you guys think that the dog really understands the reason for you reaching down to place them in the correct position, after thinking that they have just done a wonderful job, without a negative cue word during the fact? It always plays on my mind that this is correcting for seemingly no reason (not one in which the dog knows anyway).

Often I see crooked fronts corrected by handler, taking a step back. When you shorten the exercise down to half a step, the dog is bound to sit straight anyway IMO. If on the other hand that you raised a knee towards the ofending behind to straighten as they come in, then I feel at least this is disprupting the exercise enough for the dog to learn to avoid the knee and learn something. This type of example is why I like a mixture of the positive and aversive stuff.

In the case of plain old crooked sits while heeling, they can mostly be put down for being either too far back or too far forward while in the heel position. When in the right spot it is very hard for them to be sitting crooked. ;)

[Staranais]

Do you guys think that the dog really understands the reason for you reaching down to place them in the correct position, after thinking that they have just done a wonderful job, without a negative cue word during the fact? It always plays on my mind that this is correcting for seemingly no reason (not one in which the dog knows anyway).

Depends on the timing of the negative cue word, surely? If you wait a number of seconds after the "wrong" behaviour before giving the negative marker word, then I can see how that might be very confusing for the dog. But that is exactly why we use marker words and bridges. Whereas although I'm not always in time to prevent my dog from making a mistake (and to be frank I don't try, since he seems not to learn as thoroughly if I constantly help him to be right instead of sometimes letting him be wrong), I can normally get an "uh-uh" in within half a second of him making an incorrect decision. That marks the incorrect behaviour, and then I can show him the alternative and praise it. He seems to understand.

Although I choose to use a negative marker word, IMO it's not always necessary to use one, depending on how the dog has been trained. If the dog is expecting to always get immediate praise for a job well done, and it gets no praise, the dog will probably realise that it hasn't done a wonderful job, even if the handler does not immediately correct the dog for the mistake. The difference between what the dog expects and what it gets will make it quite clear that the behaviour wasn't the right one. I know some "purely positive" trainers who use this method (I don't like the method myself, since I think it has the potential to frustrate and confuse the dog when you wean off the praise for competition, and expect the dog to keep performing! But apparently it works for them.)

In the case of plain old crooked sits while heeling, they can mostly be put down for being either too far back or too far forward while in the heel position. When in the right spot it is very hard for them to be sitting crooked. ;)

Yes, that's quite true - if the dog is heeling in the right position and sits promptly when you stop, he'll be sitting in the right place. Unless he decides to crab sideways while sitting in order to see your face, of course.

[dogdude]

Yes, that's quite true - if the dog is heeling in the right position and sits promptly when you stop, he'll be sitting in the right place. Unless he decides to crab sideways while sitting in order to see your face, of course.

Good point, and the very reason I dont teach focus in that area, but I think I have already debated that subject in another thread somewhere. ;)

[leopuppy04]

Do you guys think that the dog really understands the reason for you reaching down to place them in the correct position, after thinking that they have just done a wonderful job, without a negative cue word during the fact? It always plays on my mind that this is correcting for seemingly no reason (not one in which the dog knows anyway).

No - I don't think they understand - which is why I think I differ in one main part here - there is a 'cue' that the wrong thing has been done - being a 'NRM'.... If my dog comes in crooked, they will get a 'nup' or 'uh uh' and I will withold the treat. If for example, they didn't sit - I will command sit again. Next time we do it - I'll go back a step, eg: come in closer for a recall/ distance work. They almost always succeed. When they do it right first time - they get big rewards, very excited handler etc... so the dog learns that it is the *best* thing to do as asked.

A prime example - Leo is not the best d/b retriever, probably because I didn't know how to teach it initially - at one stage he was dropping it at my feet. When he did that - I would say 'nup' - and next time go right back to getting Leo to 'take' the d/b from my hand and 'present' to me. The next time we did a full retrieve - he would *always* present properly. So - the NRM in my mind, works and allows the dog to see that the behaviour is *never* going to secure them a reward.

Often I see crooked fronts corrected by handler, taking a step back. When you shorten the exercise down to half a step, the dog is bound to sit straight anyway IMO. If on the other hand that you raised a knee towards the ofending behind to straighten as they come in, then I feel at least this is disprupting the exercise enough for the dog to learn to avoid the knee and learn something. This type of example is why I like a mixture of the positive and aversive stuff.

Although I can see how this will work with some dogs, I have never had success with it.... it has caused my dog to come in slower, either not sit, or sit out further. But I DO agree with you that if your dog comes in 'crooked' and you simply take a step back without doing anything - the dog merely waits for the 'second' signal. Again - I just NRM and we go straight back to doing another recall (maybe shorter, maybe not) - if they get it right, lots of rewards... wrong - we'll go *right* back to me showing you what a front really is (ie, me one step away and getting the dog to present properly).... I have never had a problem with this - either with my own dogs or the ones I have instructed.

In the case of plain old crooked sits while heeling, they can mostly be put down for being either too far back or too far forward while in the heel position. When in the right spot it is very hard for them to be sitting crooked. :cool:

Or dumb handler looking at dog and pulling their shoulders back ;)..... not that I would do that ;)!

I hope this makes more sense DD.

As for 'guiding' - I have done this once or twice for one reason or another (can't remember now)..... lets just use an example of you asking for a stand from sit but the dog not doing so.... I find a little guidance here helps (eg: hand on stifle, ribcage)... but if the dog was coming up and standing crooked..... then the physical 'guidance' from my experience doesn't help them understand that the 'crooked' was incorrect coz after all - you did ask for stand and that is what I am doing

Edited July 11, 2007 by leopuppy04

[dogdude]

Leopuppy:

Totally agree with, and use NRM's, but also coupled with some physical guidance combined with luring to help show them where the correct position is and also encourage them to remember it.

I found with just using the NRM's I was continuing to "have to" use them when I felt that the dog knew the exercise well from time to time.

A prime example - Leo is not the best d/b retriever, probably because I didn't know how to teach it initially - at one stage he was dropping it at my feet. When he did that - I would say 'nup' - and next time go right back to getting Leo to 'take' the d/b from my hand and 'present' to me. The next time we did a full retrieve - he would *always* present properly. So - the NRM in my mind, works and allows the dog to see that the behaviour is *never* going to secure them a reward.

This behavior is kind of what I mean. Dog does it well after NRM, but not always first time (like when you really need it during a trial)

I used FR method (earpinch method) but quickly changed to NRM as soon dog fully understood the exercise (just one week!), and seem to have the best of both worlds in regards to reliability and speed coupled with it being the dogs favourite exercise. The interesting part is, that he still will not chase a ball, stick or anything unless he is working. I have been trying to encourage him to use an Orbee lately though.

IMO this tells me that he enjoys doing a formal retrieve mainly because he fully understands what is required, fully understanding that there is no grey areas in achieving the reward.

I know that subject has been covered extensively in other threads (Positives V Aversives) but I could'nt help myself. ;)

[JulesP]

I don't correct a incorrect position at all. Or withhold the reward. I don't think the dog understands this and is likely to cause confusion and resentment (ok going a bit over the top!). I just try and work out why it wasn't good and work on fixing it. It is often the handlers position anyway. I guess this is coming from my horse riding training, reward the try and work out how to get it better next time.

[leopuppy04]

A prime example - Leo is not the best d/b retriever, probably because I didn't know how to teach it initially - at one stage he was dropping it at my feet. When he did that - I would say 'nup' - and next time go right back to getting Leo to 'take' the d/b from my hand and 'present' to me. The next time we did a full retrieve - he would *always* present properly. So - the NRM in my mind, works and allows the dog to see that the behaviour is *never* going to secure them a reward.

This behavior is kind of what I mean. Dog does it well after NRM, but not always first time (like when you really need it during a trial)

I haven't found that - I hardly use a NRM unless we are still at the teaching/ training phase. Since doing the above with Leo - he will rarely (sorry - I never can say never!) drop the d/b at all - NRM or not ;)

[dogdude]

Hi Jules

Yes, there is a school of thought that rewards "trys", although I only tend to use them during proofing. I also ignore anticipation etc. There comes a point though when sometimes some dogs need extra help.

There is nothing quite like a large bag of tricks

[JulesP]

I wouldn't reward for anticipation but I wouldn't correct either. To get the exercise to be better I try and use things like your stand over a muddy puddle idea!

To my mind if you ask for a sit and you get a sit but it is a bit crooked, I would reward the same as a straight sit but then look at what I could do to get it straighter next time.

[Staranais]

To my mind if you ask for a sit and you get a sit but it is a bit crooked, I would reward the same as a straight sit but then look at what I could do to get it straighter next time.

But JulesP, if you never tell your dog that his performance isn't good enough, then how can he be expected to refine his performance and improve what he is doing? ;)

For example if the dog sometimes sits crooked in the front, if you reward him all the time, he would never learn exactly what it is that you want. Whereas if you only reward good straight sits, and make him redo crooked ones before you reward him, then he'll work out what you are after.

Please correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick here, but what you are saying confuses me.

[JulesP]

I tend to vary the praise given. So if the sit is a bit crooked but he has still come in for the recall then he still gets praise. If he does a brilliant recall and sit then he will get more praise. I don't straighten the sit after he has sat though. If I can see he isn't coming in straight then I will move myself (away from dog) or I will move backwards so that he does sit straight.

The only time I would tell him that something wasn't good enough would be if he ignored a command.

[Staranais]

Well, I guess that just goes to prove that all dogs are different. My stafford would be extrememly confused and probably never learn a single exercise correctly if I didn't make it obvious to him when he was right and when he was wrong, but then again, your dog would possibly be quite offended and upset by my approach to training! ;)

Thanks for explaining.

[JulesP]

Lol, yes he probably would be. He gets very, very upset if he thinks he has done the wrong thing. Is the third border that I have had and they have all got upset and 'gone on strike' if corrected. So good point. Should always think about what breed you are working with.

[Staranais]

Lol, yes he probably would be. He gets very, very upset if he thinks he has done the wrong thing. Is the third border that I have had and they have all got upset and 'gone on strike' if corrected. So good point. Should always think about what breed you are working with.

Lol, that's really very sensitive! My staffy will not work happily if he is growled at or physically corrected (which is why I save that type of thing as a response to dangerous or very naughty behaviour), but is quite happy for me to tell him "uh-uh, try again!" He gets more upset if he is confused about what I want, than if he is told he was wrong and made to repeat.

[Arya]

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless).

Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act.

I do both.

If I catch my dog in the act of doing something incorrectly, I will interrupt him, then ask for it again or guide him into the right position, then praise.

If I'm too late to catch him mucking up, for example he's done a finish and sat too far back before I realised, then I will often tell him "uh-uh", gently move him into the correct position, then praise him for being there. He seems to understand that.

The only thing I think is unhelpful is rewarding a dog while being in the wrong position - at least, unless you are deliberately teaching just the bare bones of the exercise with the intention of polishing the details later. For example, when I was first teaching the auto-sit in heel, I praised and rewarded whenever his butt hit the ground at the right time, even if he was a bit crooked. I only started to straighten him up when I was sure he understood the concept of sitting whenever we stopped. Otherwise he would just have been confused and frustrated, and probably lost interest in the whole thing, since I was so hard to please!

This is exactly the way I would do it. However, here is something else to think about. It depends on what I am working on. If I am looking to polish, just for example, the sit. I will reward for perfect sits and actually say no, that's not good enough and move forward and ask my dog to repeat the sit, which she then will and she'll get rewarded for the correct position with a bit of food. I'll even bend down and pat her butt and say that's a good sit. She gets it. Others I've shown their dogs get it too. HOWEVER, depends on what I am working on. If I am looking for high drive work with good body position in the heeling and excellent focus and high verve, if you know what I mean, and I am working on this hard, then I have been known to forgive slipping positions and a bit of jumping up at the hand/ball (or hose these days!!!). In high prey drive the dog is still learning to control herself and things won't be as neat as with lower value food. But it all comes together when we want it to (except in the trial ring LOL... well, maybe that is changing now!).

One thing I do not do is ear pinch or harshly physically correct my dog when polishing up straight sits etc. What a demotivator that would be for her!!! But, she is a soft dog and if she throws down a challenge it won't be in something like tidying up sits when we're working together. She enjoys it too much.

As far as forced retrieve method for teaching dumbell etc goes I've heard it said you can't get as reliable hold without it. IMHO that is a load of codswallop. Positive, positive, positive, great time in everything in training unless there is flagrant disobedience and yes, I reward trying. It motivates the dog to try even harder IMHO, even if the try isn't quite right. I like to be rewarded for trying to get something right even if it doesn't quite end up the way it should LOL>

[Lablover]

Often I hear and see other trainers straighten crooked sits, drops, fronts etc after the fact (which I personally find pointless).

Most instructors at dog schools teach likewise, as opposed to correcting or guiding during the act. I am forever hearing things like.......... "are you happy with that sit"? etc, and I am thinking..... "no, but its too late to worry about it now!"

Many choose to straighten afterwards by moving the dog up out of position, then guiding into correct position.

If you are one of those people, I am interested in your thoughts on the matter?

I am confused, a normal state of mind!!!

At dog schools, there is little chacge to teach perfect obedience. They are, after all teaching the owners, in some would say, very difficult circumstances. Most attendees have no plan to go onto obedience trials etc.

That being said/typed, I think it would be good that the instructors single out those (who hopefully will be be too nervous or insulted), that their dogs could sit straighter. Many pups have a sloppy sits also.

Moving right along...............I personally think, as I have stated previously, endless heeling, sitting, dropping blah blah, where multiple non perfect behaviours are being rewarded, is not the best course of action. Short perfection with multiple breaks.

Dogs are all so different. Say with a lab, food might keep this focus for 30 reps, with another type of breed, they would be bored to death/distracted.

Edited July 11, 2007 by Lablover