reddog21 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 OK thank you Amhailte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 OK thank you Amhailte. More confused You Thanked ME, before Amhailte even replied to your question ??????????????? what were you thanking me for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) Sorry RedMal .... re-reading I realise I omitted the explanation of what "flooding" is about. Amhailte's given a good example of it. So that you (and other interested readers) might have some further and deeper understanding of its potential psychological affects I'd like to offer further explanation, although I'll try to not make it too complicated. The hippocampus (part of the brain) performs a regulatory function over the expression of fear. Under conditions of repeated or prolonged stress, the hippocampus may undergo degenerative changes that alter its ability to perform these functions. On the other hand, the amygdala, which forms part of the Limbic System in the brain, is involved in the switching on of the fear response behaviour. It plays a central role in emotional learning and initiates some survival responses and appears to function more efficiently under stress. Over time, with the impairment of the hippocampal regulation, the strength of amygdala may be increased, with the appearance of excessive fear. A dog doesn't change colour as and when its stress levels rise nor to indicate whether function of the hippocampus is being unacceptably impeded, so we really can't tell with certainty what is occurring to its brain during periods of stress. Flooding is stressful and as its success relies on the dog remaining in confrontation with its fears UNTIL it has calmed down, we have no idea of how long the stress is likely to occur. Furthermore, if you're in the middle of a flooding technique and realise the dog is becoming too stressed for too long a period and you therefore quit the process, you have ended the session when its current trauma may well have even escalated its initial fears. Not only does flooding have the damaging potential as explained here, but IF flooding is ever to be attempted, it MUST be in a controlled environment. For example, a dog frightened of unfamiliar people. Owner takes dog into crowds at shopping Centre. The process of flooding is incomplete, but due to shopping hours/trends, the crowds leave. Edited July 13, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Basically when people ask me about him I say that he has a few things going for him. He's fast. He's confident. He has an editor who can leave all his mistakes on the cutting room floor. Your average dog owner has none of these advantages. I enjoy watching how he works and especially how he deals with owners. Wonderful stuff! Apparently he does not have any formal qualifications in dog behaviour/psychology but he most certainly knows his stuff and makes things look rather easy - which can sometimes be a worry as I feel some very novice handlers will want to try his techniques and may end up bitten. I would be worried too when there have been many occasions where he has been bitten - but you don't see this in the final product (or at least limited viewing). There are a lot of legal cases against him to due to animal abuse, etc. Always wary of peoples claims of being a fantastic trainer when all you see is the edited product - i've seen too many that are very different to what is shown on a show or video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) I don't mind some of what Caesar suggests- calm assertive energy and confidence is very important. There are a few things i have an issue with though- - the lack of praise and/ or secondary reward. Caesar only uses a primary reward of releasing pressure, in whatever form it takes. For example, release of tension on a collar of some kind, moving away when a dog is calm/ obedient, allowing a dog up from an alpha roll etc. I have NEVER seen him use any toys, treats, markers, excited verbal praise etc. I do use punishment but believe caesar's way is (from what we see at least) somewhat out of balance. - I watched an episode the other day where he got bitten alpha rolling an ex shelter dog who was involved in a prison rehab program. The dog had issues with things like nail clipping. He suggested the dog should be on their side for nail clipping. After the bite and the struggle, he only then explained that you could muzzle the dog. Why not muzzle for an infrequent event where it was clear that novices would be handling the dog? I don't see the point in getting bitten? - I don't like the way he walks dogs although given the amount of exercise his dogs get, its probably fine. But i don't think i have too many clients who would be able to provide hours of off property exercise every day so when they do, they try to stimulate the dog more than just holding the dog in one position. Just further to flooding- i have found since my experiences with one of our dogs who we only got 6 months ago that some people/ trainers included, don't seem to understand when flooding is occurring, even when we don't want it to. For example, my dogs fear response came about as soon as she was aware of the stimulus regardless of distance. Critical distance (which is around where we work for desensitisation) was huge AND being breached many many times within a day due to her living in a house with a male present. (my OH) We had to recognise that aspects of her life were flooding and behave accordingly, ie, follow through with the process. If we had not done so we could have further sensitised her, as people had done in the past. ETA- Erny, you will have to come over, see our house and dogs, catch up and i will record some Caesar episodes for us to watch over lunch! Edited July 13, 2007 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Always wary of peoples claims of being a fantastic trainer when all you see is the edited product - i've seen too many that are very different to what is shown on a show or video. Not to be disparaging towards CM ..... unless I could see unedited versions of what he did I can't comment .... but I agree wholeheartedly with NaturallyWild here. There are versions of Dr. Harry (nice enough guy, but ) which actually took 4 hours to accomplish but which was edited down to fit into a 15 minute time slot. The edited components can comprise steps/reactions that a person contemplating a method would do well to know and understand. Having said that, I still appreciate CM's attitude (for as much as I have read of it, to date). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) Critical distance (which is around where we work for desensitisation) was huge AND being breached many many times within a day due to her living in a house with a male present. (my OH) We had to recognise that aspects of her life were flooding and behave accordingly, ie, follow through with the process. If we had not done so we could have further sensitised her, as people had done in the past. This might well have had some flooding aspects to it, but my interpretation of "flooding" in the true dog training sense is where the dog is forced to face its fear head-on (using Amhailte's words) and as a result and with time (albeit within that same session), the anxiety reduces (hopefully). It does not comprise an option where the dog may manage or reduce its anxiety by escaping the fearful stimulus, which I presume your dog had (eg. going to another room; keeping some distance). I would expect that your process involved a greater element of desensitisation. ETA- Erny, you will have to come over, see our house and dogs, catch up and i will record some Caesar episodes for us to watch over lunch! Thanks Cosmolo. Kelpie-i too has recorded the episodes for me .................... seems I'll get to catch up with them one way or the other!!! Thanks guys. Lunch ...... food ..... yumm. Edited July 13, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I see what you're saying Erny and totally agree with the traditional meaning of flooding, but what if the distance that the dog was able to keep was not great enough to reduce the fear, even in part? Flooding or desensitisation? Sorry for going OT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Here is a good explanation of flooding taken from the book "Aggression in dogs" by Brenda Aloff. "Flooding is used primarily to reduce fearful behaviour. Whereas desensitisation requires that the dog is NOT exposed to intense versions of the the fear-producing stimuls, flooding requires the opposite. When you use flooding to modify behaviour, the objective is to elicit the fearful behaviour and then wait for the dog to "stop responding" to the fear-inducing stimulus. Flooding is a very tricky technique to use properly and can do damage to the dog's psyche if not executed properly." The flooding experience has to be repeated a few times to have the lasting effect and works best for fears that are not too intense. However my belief is that if you're not an expert on it and if the fear is extremely intense, don't flood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I see what you're saying Erny and totally agree with the traditional meaning of flooding, but what if the distance that the dog was able to keep was not great enough to reduce the fear, even in part? Flooding or desensitisation? If I can hop in and answser this Cosmolo, this is a mild form of flooding. When we desensitise, we never allow the dog to come uncomfortably close to the object of its fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Thats what i thought- thanks kelpie i. Do you agree that if its not recognised that this is mild flooding that his can cause problems if the dog is removed too early? That is what i was trying to get at in my post and what i believe happened to my girl before we got her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Poor Cesar, has anyone actually met this fellow? I have no read his book or watched his show. I certainly agree with Totally Wild, what you see on videos etc, is not the full picture, which lets face it, would be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) When we desensitise, we never allow the dog to come uncomfortably close to the object of its fear. I agree - but IMO we need to be mindful that the dog needs to orientate the object of fear for desensitisation to occur. So there is still possibly and likely to be an element of uneasiness involved, but not so much as to provoke a fear response or prevent the dog from learning and exhibiting counter-conditioned responses. Cosmolo - it is possible that mis-managed flooding has occurred to your girl, not that I know nor have seen her. Are you saying there has been no improvement of her behaviour towards men in the period since she has been with you and/or that her fear responses have increased in general? Edited July 13, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) Double post ..... obviously, the little Mexican is getting me a bit excited. Edited July 13, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Double post ..... obviously, the little Mexican is getting me a bit excited He has that effect!! I agree - but IMO we need to be mindful that the dog needs to orientate the object of fear for desensitisation to occur. So there is still possibly and likely to be an element of uneasiness involved, but not so much as to provoke a fear response or prevent the dog from learning counter-conditioning responses. Yes correct Erny and this is where judging the correct critical distances come into play. The emotion should be one of very slight uneasiness without it being enough to elicit even a mild reaction. Cosmolo, I must admit that I'm a little confused as to what you ask??? Correct me but are you saying that your girl underwent some unintentional mild flooding but was removed too early for it to take effect and therefore is still showing (or has an increase in) fearful behaviour around men?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Seem"s like Cesar has all you Girls excited!!!! Is it his big...................................... Sombero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 big PERSONALITY u mean tonymc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Lewis,I do admire Cesar as he did whatever it took to achieve his Dream!!!!I just do not get excited in the same way you Girls do!!!LOL Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 im feelin an episode of cheech n chongf comin on...DUUUUUUUUUDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 daves NOT here man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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