Nacster Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 We (hubby and I) are addicted to the Dog Whisperer... I love his impression of a curious interested dog - he does it so well We sometimes count the number of times the words 'calm submissive state of mind' are repeated throughout the show - guaranteed its bound to come up in every single episode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Corrections should be the same intensity of the dogs action. My line of thought, when I had read this, was in agreement with what I have previously found - ie the earlier in the dog's behaviour that you apply a correction, the less a correction needs to be, to be as equally effective. For an "obedience" example - dog in a down-stay. A verbal correction for it bringing its elbows off the ground. The verbal correction is less likely to be as effective if the owner's timing waits until the dog is fully up. For a "behaviour" example - dog just becoming "still" in the presence of another dog. A verbal correction may well be sufficient whereas an owner waiting for the dog to eye-ball and then even progress into its reaction, the verbal is quite possibly not going to be enough for the dog to quit its behaviour or to even take it on board as a negative to the behaviour. (Disclaimer: Not a good example, as I won't necessarily use a correction for this behavioural response - much depends on the dog and whether it sports 'issues'.) This is the way I read Cesar's comment about corrections and if I am reading it correctly, then it is something I agree with. Although I probably would have worded it differently. I usually say that the earlier you correct a dog through the course of its unwanted behaviour, the less the correction needs to be to be effective. I am now wondering if that's what he meant though. ETA: IMO, Cesar was referencing to "effective" corrections, not "nagging" (ie ineffective) corrections. Although I would have thought that for a correction to be effective, it would need to be slightly higher than the intent of the dog's behaviour for it to think twice the next time around. So my next question would be how does Cesar measure a dog's intensity of behaviour and equate that to "same" intensity of correction? I think I read this the same way......it isn't very clear in his book either (which I read yesturday).....but I still think he means the same thing. It worked for me last night.......Anzac was about to jump on the table and I gave him a "argh" before he even got his feet off the floor....I could see he was thinking about doing it. He gave me a "you spoil all my fun" look and wandered off to pounce on a tennisball. Usually I don't correct him until his feet are on the table and then an "Argh" isn't enough and it usually requires a much bigger growl and sometimes for me to go towards him. I suppose this requires a lot more reading of body language and anticipation than waiting to the deed is done and then correcting.....but seems to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog21 Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Ladies, nowhere did I see Mr Milan using whips, handcuffs or any other training aids including any rubber devices. Now sit , stay be calm and assertive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Ladies, nowhere did I see Mr Milan using whips, handcuffs or any other training aids including any rubber devices.Now sit , stay be calm and assertive Just when Erny tries to bring the conversation out of the gutter, um kennel, um....mmmm!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Ladies, nowhere did I see Mr Milan using whips, handcuffs or any other training aids including any rubber devices.Now sit , stay be calm and assertive oh bugger reddog...u ve spoilt my fantasy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I'll let his pack run amok in my den anyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Can't see how anyone of you can find that Mexican midget SEXY He seems sweet though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 We sometimes count the number of times the words 'calm submissive state of mind' are repeated throughout the show - We do that too Ladies, nowhere did I see Mr Milan using whips, handcuffs or any other training aids including any rubber devices. I know, such a shame................I may have to email him and point out the error of his ways and correct him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Can't see how anyone of you can find that Mexican midget SEXY I agree Some of his methods are alright but over all i dont like him much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Can't see how anyone of you can find that Mexican midget SEXY I agree Some of his methods are alright but over all i dont like him much. I think his methods are total overkill. I think Jean Donaldson (The Culture Clash) sums it up pretty well in the Wikipedia article on him: Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA Director of Academy for Dog Trainers states, “Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.” Basically when people ask me about him I say that he has a few things going for him. He's fast. He's confident. He has an editor who can leave all his mistakes on the cutting room floor. Your average dog owner has none of these advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 But lets face it, that article, sounds like he's a monster............ "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous" There is a distinct difference between confrontation and approaching with a positive attitude. Also the choke collar only comes into effect when the dog proceeds to behave undesireably. Apart from that it is loose. Many people who have studied Wolves and pack behaviour have been training this way for decades, Cesar Milan is just the media face of what has been going on. Shaun Ellis lived with Wolves for this purpose to understand their behaviour. His findings were much the same on how they understand eachother and how they react to an individual and how they learn. Cesar Milan is not dangerous, he simply tries to inform people of the understanding of dogs. Such a shame so many people don't understand dogs, yet try to 'make' them follow commands they dont understand. Such a shame there are so many people, who dont understand people that understand dogs !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 He's on TV now, a new episode, so I'll excuse myself to indulge in a bit of lil Mexican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Cesar Milan is not dangerous, he simply tries to inform people of the understanding of dogs.Such a shame so many people don't understand dogs, yet try to 'make' them follow commands they dont understand. Such a shame there are so many people, who dont understand people that understand dogs !!! I don't agree that a training tool set that consists almost entirely of flooding and punishment is worth promoting. Why do you think his critics don't understand dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Punishment !!!!! Sorry, I don't see any punishment, only correction by diversion. Not sure what you mean by flooding. That means something different in the UK clearly ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) Not sure what you mean by flooding. That means something different in the UK clearly ! Hi RedMal. I haven't had opportunity to watch Cesar Millan (I don't have Foxtel) and only recently have been reading his book, but I understand from others I've spoken to that he does use quite a lot of "flooding" technique in his training/rehabilitation. Flooding is something that, IMO, is not for the novice and given that we can't see the affect of the stress that flooding causes during rehabilitation, can be deletorious for the dog ..... not to mention result in permanent psychological damage. Most of us at some stage or other use flooding in very small doses and in many of these cases, the term "flooding" would be a fairly loose term to describe it. But to use "flooding" in its true intent and meaning (as far as dog training terminology is concerned) is something that must be done with great care and only by those who understand what they are doing and how the dog can be affected. Flooding can produce some miraculously great results, but it also has the potential for the opposite. Erring on the side of caution, I don't recommend it to the general dog-owner in the normal course of my own work and very rarely even use it myself. It is certainly not something I would recommend be a component of something such as a TV show - I don't think I need to explain or mention how many people watch these shows and figure that because they've seen it they can safely apply it to their own dogs. As I mentioned - I haven't had opportunity to watch CM's shows, so I'm not sure to what exent he applies the technique of "flooding". So far as I have read, I like and agree with his attitude towards how we should perceive our dogs and their relationship with us, and also agree that many of the issues we see today are as a result of the human inaptitude for recognising that dogs are dogs, not people. Edited July 13, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Spot on Erny, I agree with what you say about dogs being dogs. I'm still non the wiser as to what 'flooding' is though. We must have an equivalent surely ?? Can you describe what it is.....pleasssse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog21 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Thank you Red Mal. But what is flooding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) Posted by reddog21Thank you Red Mal. But what is flooding? Eh ???????????? Thank you for what ????? I'm Confused ! Edited July 13, 2007 by Red Mal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Flooding is when, if a dog is afraid of a particuar thing or situation, you force the dog to confront the situation head on. Take the example of a dog who is terrified of walking on a slippery floor. To use flooding, you could pick the dog up and put him right on the floor, and make him stay there until he (hopefully) realises that is wasn't so bad after all and (hopefully) calms down. It can work, but can also go wrong and make the dog's fear worse if the trainer doesn't know exactly what they are doing. Many trainers would suggest slower methods of desensitisation, such as encouraging the dog to gradually explore the floor and rewarding it every time it moved closer to the floor, but not forcing it to go or stay anywhere near the feared situation. Slower, but safer and less traumatic for the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Mal Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Aah thanks for that I understand now. I think it depends on the dog too, not just the fact that flooding is bad altogether. I've dealt with a few dogs that took months to do anything with and tried every type of desensitisation, but to no avail. Only flooding techniques worked, and very quickly. One dog in particular acted like it was what he needed afterwards. He was such a happy dog afterwards. I also think alot of people place too much emphasys on how a dog 'feels' when they need to look at how the dam of the dog would react to training that pup herself. They dont desensitise. I agree with it, but only with certain dogs in certain circumstances. "Flooding"................. You learn something new everyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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