BCNTC Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 ok, my Toller will take the bumper on command from anwhere in my hand(raised in the air) she will run after the bumper, and marks like a dream, she will bring the bumper back to me, and she loves water. but I have one MAJOR problem...she will NOT pick up te bumper off the ground. I have been working with her EVERY SINGLE DAY for 3 months, AND have attended retriever training classes with her, with absolutly NO success, not even a teeny tidbit of progress. she will not pick it up to avoid pain(ear pinch or collar twist as learned in class) or for attention, or for treats or play. I have tried to get her to pick it up from a laying down postion(so she's closer to it) but all she does is roll over on her back. getting her interest by throwing it is usless, she just runs to the bumper all exited...and thats it, she just wanders off, wont even try to pick it up. I am at my wits end and beyond frusterated. does anyone have ideas on how to get her to pick the damn bumper up off the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Hi there, Getting the dog to pick the bumper up off the ground is the hardest part of Force Fetch. For some reason it seems be be a brick wall for alot of dogs. It certainly was for mine! You say you have been using ear pinch and collar twist. Which one? If you decide to use FF as a tool to teach the hold and retrieve you need to follow the whole process through from start to finish for it to be effective. I transitioned my dog from reaching for the dummy held straight in front to gradually getting lower and lower until my hand was resting flat on the ground underneath the dummy. Then I would put the dummy on the ground and just have my hand near it. These seemed to work ok. I believe its extremely common for dogs to try many different types of avoidance behaviours during FF as well. The very least of which is throwing themselves on their back! That's why the manner in which you hold your dog is so important as it prevents too much movement of the dog away from the dummy. It is vital that you maintain the ear pressure until the dog reaches for the dummy. If you quit when it rolls on its back then you've essentially rewarded the avoidance behaviour!! Where are you located? Your best bet would be to have someone experienced guide you through the WHOLE FF process should you wish to pursue that route. An alternative to FF is the use of a clicker to shape the retrieve. Both methods take about as long as each other so there's no quick fix I'm afraid! Edited July 8, 2007 by Tangwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) initially I tried the collar twist as she was having no reaction whatsoever to the ear pinch, but the professional trainer finally found one little spot on her ear she reacted too, and that works much better, so this is what I have been using for a vast majority of the time. the clicker shaping and treats was something I tried before I started classes, and something I attempted once again for about 2 weeks after, when she wasnt responding to the collar twist and ear pinch. so I have been consistantly using the ear pinch method for about 2 months. I did take classes, and had help from lots of people very experienced in retriever training and trialing, and real hunting. while they help greatly with a majority of it, even they had difficulty with her resistance lol. it was quite funny in the beginng when she wasnt responding to the ear pinch at all, people that have been hunting and training for 60 years were puzzled Edited July 8, 2007 by BCNTC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Have you got the SmartFetch DVD or book by Evan Graham? Excellent reviews and apparently very comprehensive. I think it deals a fair bit with dogs who "shut down" like yours is. http://www.dogsafieldonline.net/prodinfo.asp?number=R240-103 Edited July 8, 2007 by Tangwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 never even heard of it lol I dont have a DVD player, but I will check out the book, Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 2 months of ear pinching and the dog will not pick up from the ground, after receiving professional advice? Wow. Something is not right here. Tell us more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 she's weird..... Electra has this thing, where she will just turn everything off and head to 'lala land' so she will be like "ehhhh, Im tired of this......lala laaaaaaa". for example when the dogs had to practice holding a stay with a dead duck was tossed in front of them, Electra headed off to 'lala land" the trainer tossed the duck while jumping up and down flapping his arms making funny sounds, and Leck did not so much as LOOK his way, she was off in her own little world. finally the trainer picked up the docked walked staright to to Leck and started waving it an inch from her face...still not even a glance from Leck. finally the neck of the duck swung a bit and wacked leck in the head, ONLY then did she snap out of her little world and realize what was in front of her. this is the problem with her earch pinch training, if she doesnt feel like it at the time she heads off to her little world, and has no reaction whatsoever. so, because she doesnt wanna take it off the ground she simply heads to 'lala land' when I ask it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I know hardly anything about retrieving trials, so you'll probably get much better advice from everyone else on this thread. But reading your post, I just wondered why you couldn't just put your hand lower and lower to the ground until she takes it? I mean, you say she will take it from your hand in the air, but not pick it up from the ground. So couldn't you get her to take it from your hand, only hold your hand lower and lower, until your hand is resting on the ground, then slowly take your hand away? If you did it slowly enough, going back a step whenever she mucked up, then I don't see how that couldn't work eventually? Although since I don't know much about retrieving, there could be something there I'm missing. If she won't work for food, why not try getting her to miss dinner before training? Or if you feed her meals at training sessions, i.e you make food only available at training sessions, I'm sure she'll get more interested in training sessions within a day or two! If she won't work for toys, have you tried drive building with her to raise the value she puts on her toys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 she's weird..... ;) Electra has this thing, where she will just turn everything off and head to 'lala land' so she will be like "ehhhh, Im tired of this......lala laaaaaaa". for example when the dogs had to practice holding a stay with a dead duck was tossed in front of them, Electra headed off to 'lala land" the trainer tossed the duck while jumping up and down flapping his arms making funny sounds, and Leck did not so much as LOOK his way, she was off in her own little world. finally the trainer picked up the docked walked staright to to Leck and started waving it an inch from her face...still not even a glance from Leck. finally the neck of the duck swung a bit and wacked leck in the head, ONLY then did she snap out of her little world and realize what was in front of her. this is the problem with her earch pinch training, if she doesnt feel like it at the time she heads off to her little world, and has no reaction whatsoever. so, because she doesnt wanna take it off the ground she simply heads to 'lala land' when I ask it. Your dog sounds as though she is not birdy and has suspect drive. Overall not a good prospect. Sorry. For interest though, how does she perform at obedience training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 (edited) she's weird..... ;) Electra has this thing, where she will just turn everything off and head to 'lala land' so she will be like "ehhhh, Im tired of this......lala laaaaaaa". for example when the dogs had to practice holding a stay with a dead duck was tossed in front of them, Electra headed off to 'lala land" the trainer tossed the duck while jumping up and down flapping his arms making funny sounds, and Leck did not so much as LOOK his way, she was off in her own little world. finally the trainer picked up the docked walked staright to to Leck and started waving it an inch from her face...still not even a glance from Leck. finally the neck of the duck swung a bit and wacked leck in the head, ONLY then did she snap out of her little world and realize what was in front of her. this is the problem with her earch pinch training, if she doesnt feel like it at the time she heads off to her little world, and has no reaction whatsoever. so, because she doesnt wanna take it off the ground she simply heads to 'lala land' when I ask it. Sounds like classic stress induced displacement behaviour to me. Dog's response to the negative is to "tune out". This is not "ignoring you". This is a dog that is doing what it needs to cope. Is this a soft dog? Some dogs handle the force fetching technique.. and some don't. It might be time to try another approach. I'd certainly be trying another trainer. I know bugger all about gundog trainer but I'd be trying a clicker.. Edited July 11, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 BTW, BCNTC, where in Canada do you live? The Canadian amateur national retrieving trial championship begins this weekend. A couple of Australians are attending. Lucky devils. So damm lucky and competition is all on one site, owned by the gundog club, no driving on the other side of the road for them following day to day competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 she's weird..... Electra has this thing, where she will just turn everything off and head to 'lala land' so she will be like "ehhhh, Im tired of this......lala laaaaaaa". for example when the dogs had to practice holding a stay with a dead duck was tossed in front of them, Electra headed off to 'lala land" the trainer tossed the duck while jumping up and down flapping his arms making funny sounds, and Leck did not so much as LOOK his way, she was off in her own little world. finally the trainer picked up the docked walked staright to to Leck and started waving it an inch from her face...still not even a glance from Leck. finally the neck of the duck swung a bit and wacked leck in the head, ONLY then did she snap out of her little world and realize what was in front of her. this is the problem with her earch pinch training, if she doesnt feel like it at the time she heads off to her little world, and has no reaction whatsoever. so, because she doesnt wanna take it off the ground she simply heads to 'lala land' when I ask it. Sounds like classic stress induced displacement behaviour to me. Dog's response to the negative is to "tune out". This is not "ignoring you". This is a dog that is doing what it needs to cope. Is this a soft dog? Some dogs handle the force fetching technique.. and some don't. It might be time to try another approach. I'd certainly be trying another trainer. I know bugger all about gundog trainer but I'd be trying a clicker.. EXACTLY!! You need to totally re-assess your training technique, from conformation through to obedience, your dog doesn't want to work with you and it's up to you to re-establish rapport with her. Tollers do not respond well at all with punishment based techniques, they shut down very quickly. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Some dogs handle the force fetching technique.. and some don't. I disagree with this statement. I believe that FF can work for the vast majority of dogs if its done CORRECTLY. One size does not fit all and the FF course needs to be done to completion, not just in bits and pieces. I would be interested to know whether this dog was taught to "hold" and "give" prior to the ear pinch or collar twist commencing. Confusion is a classic reason for "shut down" to occur. Introducing pressure before a dog has a clear understanding of what is expected begs trouble no matter what the discipline being trained. I'd certainly be trying another trainer. Definitely! If the trainers you are working with now are causing this much confusion and distress in your dog its time to go elsewhere and quickly! I know bugger all about gundog trainer but I'd be trying a clicker.. I think the OP has tried clicker as stated in one of her replies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 she was taught to hold without the ear pinch, it was only used to teach "take it" after she knew "hold" quite well. as for birdie......she aboslutly is EXTREMLY birdy. it took her while to notice the duck because she wasnt paying attention, but once she noticed the bird? :D as for being a soft dog? nope, not at all. she plays the part of shutting down, without actually shutting down if that makes sence lol one of my BCs does this as well, its drives me bonkers. basicly she behaves ALMOST as if she is shutting down, exept that she doesnt actually shut down. Obedience part is is fabulous at, if there is one thing I get alot of comments on its how focased she is on me, when it came to the obedience, she was the star of the class from the beginning. trianers in the feild have commented on how great her rapport is with me, as well as conformation judges when I have been in the ring with her. as for another trainer? all our trainers are part of the same retriever club here, the trainers I refered too were ALL the gun dog trainers in my area lol and I am is Saskatchewan by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 were making progress! I tried "doggie boot camp" lol I am typicaly a posative trainer, but I tried getting more strict with her all around in life, and it appears to be helping. last night I actually had her more interested in grabbing the bumper then grabbing my arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 BCNTC: as for being a soft dog? nope, not at all. she plays the part of shutting down, without actually shutting down if that makes sence lol one of my BCs does this as well, its drives me bonkers. basicly she behaves ALMOST as if she is shutting down, exept that she doesnt actually shut down. I don't buy this. I don't believe dogs "act" for their own benefit in this kind of training scenario. If this was an agility dog, I'd be advising the trainer to stop looking to the dog for the problems it was experiencing and to start looking to the other end of the leash. Something in the training is causing this response.. either something that's being done or something that isn't. I know a couple of pretty robust and seemingly confident dogs that do no respond well to certain types of training pressure.. that said it's up to you as the handler to find what works. So rather than considering that the problem lies with the dog... look to yourself, your trainer and the training method. You can't change the dog but you can change the other three. Clearly she knows how to work.. the challenge is to tranfer the focus and success she's had in obedience onto retrieving. Good luck.. this can be very frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 I ALWAYS adjust my methodes to the dog and what I am teaching, I have never ever ever been one to train with only one method, what works for one dog, does not always work for another. trust me, Leck is NOT soft, if I am the least bit leniant or ignore things I dont want she WILL walk all over me, she just droops her ears and looks sad, all the while continuing to be obnoxious. I was having difficulting with her before, because I tried adjusting the methode so it wasnt so harsh, I thought she was too soft. but I got absolutly nowhere with her, the trainer however stuck with the harsher more strict stuff, and when she put on the "sad" act the trainer ignored her and made her do it anyway. it worked, in what took me 4 weeks to fail to teach her. the trainer had Leck happily doing within 20 minuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I admit I am lost and confused with this thread. When Leck fails to pick up a bumper from the ground, what do you do? What did you do during walking fetch for example? In your initial post, you typed that she did retrieve from the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) I have to say that reading the first post again, one expression came to mind.. ."learned helplessness" I honestly think it's possible that the training methods used have taken this dog to that point. The fact that months of training failed to achieve anything reinforces that view. Your dog's immobility and failure to respond to the ear pinch is another indicator. Perhaps the sight of the bumper is enough to trigger the response. Edited July 13, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 what in the world is a "walking fetch"? I didnt say she retrieved from the ground, I said she will bring it back once it is in her mouth lol. the trainer didnt want me, as the handler to come over and make her pick it up, so the trainer was at the other end and made her take it from her hand, then bring it back. thats what I meant..she will run out to it, but if someone doesnt pick it up to get it in her mouth she just wanders off, but if someone at the other end has her take it from their hand, she will brind it back, and hold it doing whatever, until I say "out". I hope that makes more sence... my previous post I was refering to "hold". for the longest time she would "Hold" while sitting, but walking with the bumper was out of the question lol. I had initially thought she was "shutting down" and too soft, so I was trying to teach her really positivly, but it didnt help at all. the trainer took her aside, as non of the other dogs had issue with this, and within 20 minuts if a very strict, no nonsence "cut the bull" type methode, leck was happily moving around the with bumper, and hasent had an issue with it since. as I said a few posts ago, she IS making progress now. I tried getting more strict with her all around in everyday life, and its helping, the other day she picked it up herself a couple times. the more strict overall thing seem's to be focasing her, making her more interested in going after the bumper(while before she was more intersted in mouthing ME) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now