shoemonster Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I have also posted this in breeders but thought that some of the trainers might be able to shed some light on this behaviour Have a question on behalf of a friend, who is a reg breeder, with lots of experience She has a singleton pup who is now 6 weeks old, and he is pretty nasty. She is really confused as to what to do with him, as she has never had a pup like this, and she also has no computer access so asked me to post up here for her His background is that he was a single pup born by ceasar to a bitch who never went into labor, and rejected him, (she also picked him up at 1 hr old and bit him) He was taken to another bitch who had recently had a litter but not accepted by her either, so he came back to the breeder to be hand reared. She then found out she had to go into hospital for a fairly major op, and so he went to the bitches owner for 8 days and hand rearing continued there. He has been back at breeders since. He lives with 3 other dogs, 2 adults and a now 16 week old pup. He is very fiery especially if picked up, will growl and carry on, for eg he will run up for attention, get picked up, growl, get put down for growling and then he will growl because hes been put on the floor. And I don't mean puppy growls I mean he is seriously cracking it. Whilst he has been spoilt somewhat being an only pup, he also has very definite ground rules, he just pushes and pushes even from about 4 -5 weeks old Though the breeder knows that his upbringing was far from ideal there wasn't much that could be done at the time (needless to say things would be a lot different if it were to ever happen again, I guess we learn alot from bad things happening) The biggest worry is that it seems to be more people related than dog related and she is taking this very seriously, and is having trouble with deciding what she can do, and if she could ever home him He can be a really nice pup at times, but he can also have horrible moments, and she really doesn't know what to do with him. I have done a search on other singletons on here and am getting all the info I can, and she is also speaking to all her friends and acquaintances as well, as she is really worried by it all. Both his dam and sire have great temperaments Has anyone else had or heard of pups being like this and what would you do? Sorry if I've left stuff out, trying to remember it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 He needs to be put back in his box, mother and siblings never did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I have heard of orphan hand raised pups turning out with agression problems due to missing out on vital feedback from litter mates, as in they don't learn bite inhibition or appropriate play etc....perhaps this is what has happened. I think however hard us humans work to do the right thing, sometimes there are lessons that can only be learned from other dogs. I'm sorry, I don't have a great deal of experience with this, but I have heard of this happening. It must be very concerning for your friend, but I'm glad she is seeking advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 My parents had a similar issue with a pup out of their kelpie bitch. Unfortunately the mother wasn't the best of mothers and decided that working was far more important than looking after her pups, so she promptly weaned & dumped them at about 3 weeks. This pup was in a litter of 5 from memory, but unfortunately none of his siblings stood up to him and he didn't have his mother to put him in place either. He was ok with humans but was a really bully towards his litter mates. He needed to be put back in his place and hard!! I wonder how you'd go starting the NILIF on such a young pup? Obviously on a very simple basis but start teaching him that he needs to behave in order to get good stuff in life. My dog was 7.5 weeks when I bought her home and I started on it immediately, so he's not much short of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) My last Rotty i hand raised from birth. She also showed major signs of aggression from very young and i remember her growling when picked up at only 6 weeks of age. She lived with 3 other dogs but i think became too confident around humans because we didnt tell her off like a mother would have. I had to come down very hard on her and let her know that she was not Gods gift to the world. She ended up being the best dog i have ever and will ever own. I did everything thing with her and will never have such a close bond with a dog again. She was dog aggressive sometimes though as she seemed not to have dog communication skills. She had no learned bite unhibition and where a normal dog would tell off and nip, she would tell off and one quick bite would cause major damage. I have heard stories of hand raised dogs being very aggressive leading to euthanasia. I know of one large dog that was euthanised at 3 years of age as a direct result of being hand raised without boundaries. Hand raised pups need very strong boundaries and a knowledgeable owner who will not let them get away with ANYTHING !! Edited to make more sense!! Edited July 8, 2007 by jesomil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 Thank you for the replies, I will be printing it off so she can read it all Good to see that there is some hope for the little guy and that he isn't abnormal, considering the circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) When I was waiting for a Ridgie pup (for 12 months) one of the first that come available was a singleton. I turned it down. I figured that there could be a chance of issues that I really felt I didn't know enough about to deal with in an effective manner. But also the breeder was trying to re-establish some old lines and I guess wished to stand by her words to let me have a bitch from the litter. That this pup was the only one to survive (2 delivered by caesar, but one died soon after) was probably important to the breeding program, so the breeder kept her and raised her. I met the pup at various occasions and initially she did seem to have some socialisation issues, both with people and dogs, however the last time I saw her was at a camp out practice tracking weekend. While she didn't really seek any attention from strange people, she wasn't intolerant of them and seemed to get along with other dogs in an offlead setting fine. If she was uncomfortable, she was more likely to show avoidance than aggression. Nature or nurture? I couldn't say....don't know enough in this area. I will add that she was raised in the normal way by her dam though. ETA: I have fostered a pup that was dumped...probably around 2-3 weeks of age as it had only just started cutting its baby teeth (breeders could probably give a more accurate guesstimation of age based on that). She was a cattle cross something...had one blue eye. She was partially fed bottle formula but was also happy to eat. I had 2 adult dogs at home who were great with the foster pups. This pup was successfully rehomed at apprx 12 weeks to another home with dogs and she had neither issues with people or dogs. I was lucky enough to be in the position where she could come to work with me though, so she got heaps of socialisation from the get go. Edited July 8, 2007 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 im only a newbie here but i had a young pup with a biting problem. Being a stafff x she never backed down. I found that if i grabbed her by her neck gently and rolled her over and "growled" at her i regained power. it might sound primitive,but given that she had no sicial skills from her mother i felt i had no choice,.... does anyone strongly appose to my method?/? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 this probabaly sounds harsh but often bitches reject pups for a good reason in their natural environment the pup would no have survived and two bitches have rejectd him coudl thee be something wrong with the pup socialisation wise you need to find a good litter of pups with a good matriarch and start the socialisatio process asap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 In this case the bitch rejected him as she was unaware that he was hers. She didn't go into labor and in her mind she went to sleep and woke up hurting and with a small thing in with her The second bitch I think didn't so much reject him as she didn't have enough milk left to feed him etc, I think she had a recent litter but it would have taken time to get her milk back (sorry I should have written that before to make more sense) But it is something else to think about too Thanks for everyones thoughts, I will pass it all on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Does this pup display other signs of being, not quite right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 No everything else is good, he eats well, walks normally, has had a full vet check - hearing sight everything, they can't find anything When he is being nice he is the most gorgeous little guy, and such a sweetie, but when he is nasty he is horrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Hi Shoemonster, I may be enclined to think it's a combination of what has happend to the pup since birth and not just because it was hand reared. Being bitten by the mother, then moving house and back again is alot for such a young pup to go through. Some puppy's not all may have problems because they were hand reared this I agree with. I know the circumstances were unavoidable and I do hope your friends health has improved. Before giving advice on how to fix this liitle guy, I would certainly require alot more info as your friend does have a serious problem. I would need to know exactly what your friend does with the puppy on a day to day basis and what exactly his ground rules are. It is not a simple as putting him back in his box, or trying to immitate what the mother would have done. If things are done wrongly now they may appear to work, but it will show that it was done wrong when the dog gets to 15 months to 2 years old. This is the maximum life expectancy I will give this little guy if things are done wrongly now. Being hard on this little guy right now will only teach him to be more aggresive with people. It may work on some pups who are not so strong willed but I dout if this pup is one of them. From 6 to 8 weeks old is when puppys social skills in a litter are moulded and is a coming together of all they have learned with each other. This only applys to how to behave with other dogs and has nothing to do with how to behave with other people. This is the path I would be taking if I was your friend. If a surrogate litter could be found for the next 2 weeks then he could pick up some social skills in relation to other dogs. At 8weeks I would be getting a very good behavioural trainer to teach your friend on how to mould the puppys behaviour with people. This pup needs an intesive rehab and training program in order to increase his life expectancy. If no surogate litter can be found then start with a behaviouist coming to your friend straight away. You can send me a detailed diary of what your friend does on a day to day basis and what his ground rules are. I will be happy to take a look for you. If your friend does not live to far from Sydney she could certainly enlist my help. I hope you keep us informened on how the little guy is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 My bitch is an only pup. She is 17 months old and we've had many many temperament probs with her and have been doing the triangle and NILIF stuff which has been working well, but I would still never trust her in certain situations. It's a shame because she is a lovely dog but she's missed out on many valuable lessons which I don't think we'll ever completely overcome. I would never have another 'only' pup again. She's also a real bully with other dogs, even when playing. Not through lack of training. Everyone remember this next time the 'owner' is blamed for their dogs behaviour. I know most times the owner will be at fault, but also, there are many times when the owner is doing everything humanely possible and the problem still crops up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 No everything else is good, he eats well, walks normally, has had a full vet check - hearing sight everything, they can't find anythingWhen he is being nice he is the most gorgeous little guy, and such a sweetie, but when he is nasty he is horrible Just another couple of thoughts. With having labradors, which whelp large litters, I have never had a singleton. Then again, there are breeds which routinely whelp small litters. I have had come across a couple of singleton pups (frozen semen from older studs for example) who have achieved greatness in the US, so obviously it can be done. Sorry I cannot be more detailed but frankly I was more interested in training. What are the pups current living arrangements (over a 24 hour period)? Is the current caregiver able to give one on one time through the day? Is in solitary in a kennel/run? And does it spend excessive time the older dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I have actually hand reared 8 or so pups over the last 26 years, some back in the UK with my local vet and the rest since coming to Australia during my time in vet nursing. 3 of them did not respond well and had issues, but with proper guidance and many differant training methods these issues were resolved. A surogate litter is a good idea if possable for the last 2 weeks as it would help in the dog to dog behaviour side of things as I put in my last post. As you said yourself your dog is a bully with other dogs because of a lack of this when she was between 2 and 8 weeks. However if the pup is only 6 weeks old and this is not available there are still many things that can be done so that it can go through its life with other dog companions. The human part of this pups problem will need help from someone who knows more than she does. This does not mean to say she has not tried or does not love the pup but no one is an expert at everything. I cherish the fact that I am always learnig in my dog career. There are alot of dog trainers/behaviourist here in Australia and many use differant methods. It is surley better to have one,two or even three in this situation help this woman and her pup. If one, does not solve all of the important issues needing resolved then try another for issues that help is still needed with. It really depends on their experience. I dout very much that every problem a hand reared dog has can be blamed on this fact. Other external influence will come into play in moulding its bahaviour. If you have tried more than the triangle or NILF fell free to share what they were. Love is free, pactience is free and understanding is free. A lot of things in life are free for both humans and dogs they have evolved alot more and are very adaptable to human life more than we give them credit for. :rolleye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Hi Lablover, nice to see someone else wants to know the pups daily diary. It is so important. I really hope this little guy gets the best of help. I don't suppose you have a litter at the moment at about 6weeks that could be used. Then again alot of people might be put off because of this little guys behaviour, he really needs pups his own age right now. My last post was to Monah so there is no confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Hi Lablover, nice to see someone else wants to know the pups daily diary. It is so important. I really hope this little guy gets the best of help. I don't suppose you have a litter at the moment at about 6weeks that could be used. Then again alot of people might be put off because of this little guys behaviour, he really needs pups his own age right now. My last post was to Monah so there is no confusion. :D Hi, I realised it was to me. I too hope the little pup gets some help now. We got our dog at 12 weeks and she really had huge issues, was even terrified of us when we picked her up. It may not just have been an 'only' pup issue but I'll never really know. She has had testing and training by behaviourists which has been fairly successful, but she cannot be 'trusted' which is a shame. She can be terrific fun and good company and then suddenly becomes aggressive toward other dogs or people ie. bails people up esp. children and barks aggressively. She has great recall but is now never off lead except in safe (for others!) situations.Thanks pinnacle.xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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