Herding

[koolietas]

Yesterday whilst training in the PT yard, my sheltie was butted by a sheep (which caused him to fall to the ground) and then chased by this sheep for about 30 seconds. It definitely frightened him so I changed the sheep over (he had been working 9 at that point) and took 3 new sheep out in the same yard for him - but he wasn't interested. I decided to take the sheep up into the smaller HT yard and during this process, one of the sheep jumped and landed straight on Koolie's back! Luckily, he doesn't seem to have suffered any injury, and I did after much encouragement get him working again in the HT yard.

As Koolie is a 'softer' dog...how do I get his confidence back up again? He got his HT last weekend but he's not an overly confident dog (ie. he's not confident enough to get sheep off a fenceline for eg)

Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

[Tonymc]

Koolie,how long since this line of Dogs has done any work? Tony

[Kelpie-i]

Koolietas, were the sheep "dogged" sheep? Was anybody else with you ie. trainer etc when this occurred?

Whilst shelties were originally bred to herd, they have lost a lot of their instinct (and I would dare say "hardness") due to the watering down process of breeding for conformation.

I would give your dog a break from sheep for a while and then re-introduce with some soft and fairly dogged sheep who will provide him with plenty of wins and a more positive outcome.

[wheres my rock]

we had a similar prob with my sheltie he has good instinct but hes very soft under pressure and one sheep threw him he lost confidence

Dave took us ut in the big paddock with his kelpe bitch and within a few minutes he was back on track even going after a sheep that broke and headed it and bought it back

I think in the amller yard the sheep were harder for him to get mving as he doesnt have amuch presence lol but once he found he could move them he got the hang of it

[jesomil]

I would be extremely careful of ever letting a young or inexperienced dog get into a situation where is can be chased or butted. Someone should always be in full control of the sheep and the sheep should be extremely quiet for a soft dog like yours.

I am not all that experienced, but here is what i would suggest. Maybe let your dog watch an experienced dog moving sheep around to see if you can get some enthusiasm happening. Let your dog work on only very dogged sheep so that, as Kelpie-i said, will provide him with wins and positive experiences. Create a bit of movement with the dogged sheep to try and get your dog excited.

Maybe try working another form of stock like ducks to get some confidence happening.

But above all, always keep an eye on the sheep and make sure they never get a chance to have a go at your dog.

Sheep can pick a weak dog very easily and will make trouble. Your dog may not be suited to sheepwork.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Possibly the temperament of your dog?. Panda has had a Damara fall on him, he was winded briefly, but has not lost his confidence, if anything he has more respect for the sheep.

Cassie (8 months) doesnt have near the confidence of Panda (age could be a factor) so in training we have let Panda into the yard with her and will continue to do so until she is more confident. She did pass her HIC on the w/e.

Edited July 2, 2007 by Hesapandabear

[wheres my rock]

i agree about the experienced sheep also wit connor dave always had one of his kelpies wiht him if a sheep looked at him funy Rosie stepped in and sorted it out actualy she was brilliant she would move the shepep then step back and let connor have a go and only help when he looked in trouble i think she thought he was a pup hehe

I agree with hesa too the dog may just not have the temprement for sheep the sheep in aust are big and tough and will stand their ground it takes a dog wiht good presence to manage them maybe ducks would be better for a softer dog though they can be quite aggressive if they think they can get away with it

Id find a vry expereinced person and get themt o help you build your dogs confidence maybe ask herding guy if he knows anyone near you that would suit

[fidelis Border Collies]

Yesterday whilst training in the PT yard, my sheltie was butted by a sheep (which caused him to fall to the ground) and then chased by this sheep for about 30 seconds. It definitely frightened him so I changed the sheep over (he had been working 9 at that point) and took 3 new sheep out in the same yard for him - but he wasn't interested. I decided to take the sheep up into the smaller HT yard and during this process, one of the sheep jumped and landed straight on Koolie's back! Luckily, he doesn't seem to have suffered any injury, and I did after much encouragement get him working again in the HT yard.

As Koolie is a 'softer' dog...how do I get his confidence back up again? He got his HT last weekend but he's not an overly confident dog (ie. he's not confident enough to get sheep off a fenceline for eg)

Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

Koolietas

Have you tired him on Ducks I find I can work my young pups on ducks as i feel sheep are too dangeruos when the dogs are small. As long as they don't want to eat the ducks its a great way of Building Confidence up

Tracey

[koolietas]

Thanks everyone for your replies/advice...much appreciated! I'll try and answer all of your questions in this post...

Tracey & Jesomil - I've tried him on ducks twice in recent times...I can't let him off lead as he wants them for lunch :D so not sure if this is something to persue with him...

Tonymc - I don't believe (in recent times anyway) that any of his lines have worked...I did pose this question to a trainer recently, and she said that as long as the dog has the instinct, this wouldn't really matter?

Kelpie-i - the sheep we were using have been the same ones that we have used for the past 18 months (there's only about 30 sheep to choose from...with a couple that we don't use often as they're too hard on the dogs...even the Aussies)

We've been training on & off for about 18 months now...this is the only negative experience that we have had in all that time, so I'm hoping that the last 18 months of positive experiences will outweigh this negative one. I think it's a good sign that he did work the sheep in the HT yard after these incidents - I'm just concerned that as he was butted in the PT yard, that he will see this yard as a negative place to be.

We recently spent time with a trainer from QLD who said that with Koolie being a softer type dog, would work better in the PT yard rather than the smaller HT yard. This definitely seems to be the case, as he was working beautifully on Sunday (up until he was butted).

I'm really in two minds as to whether to give him a break for a while or whether to get him back in the yard but with another 'stronger' dog and see how that goes. Koolie, although a sheltie - is much much bigger than the norm! He's about the size of a small rough collie (in fact I've seen rough collies smaller than Koolie!) so there's not such a big difference between him and the sheep.

Thanks again - it's good to get some feedback as this is the first dog I've worked with sheep and rely on advice from experience people in this area.

[Kelpie-i]

I did pose this question to a trainer recently, and she said that as long as the dog has the instinct, this wouldn't really matter?

Koolietas, instinct and workability are two different things. All herding breeds, whether from show or work line show instinct, albeit to differing degrees but whether the dog has solid working ability and is mentally strong enough to take some knocks is another matter.

the sheep we were using have been the same ones that we have used for the past 18 months

Just curious, where there any young lambs around? Ewes will sometimes become testy if they've just been in lamb.

I'm really in two minds as to whether to give him a break for a while or whether to get him back in the yard but with another 'stronger' dog and see how that goes. Koolie, although a sheltie - is much much bigger than the norm! He's about the size of a small rough collie (in fact I've seen rough collies smaller than Koolie!) so there's not such a big difference between him and the sheep.

This is entirely up to you as both options could work for you. However as Jesomil stated, sheep can usually pick the weak dog and will usually give it curry, so it is best work with calmer sheep.

[koolietas]

Kelpie-i,

No lambs around. The 'attack' really took me by surprise...I've found in the past that if a sheep is going to be trouble, then I would notice this usually within 60 seconds. Koolie had been working these sheep for about 10 minutes without a hint of a problem. In fact, it was probably the best I'd seen him work and definitely think that the larger sized yard is better suited to his 'type'. We had paused for a short break when one of the sheep literally came away from the herd and butted Koolie (who was sitting quite close to me and about 7 or 8 metres away from where the sheep were...

Thanks again,

Koolietas