wheres my rock Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 fhr i garee i want my dogs looking out in front but staying foccussed not hard to achieve as it sounds my gsp had lovely heeling and was also grea at marking birds Its easy to get the high head heeling but is it necessary no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 There is a reasonable amount written about the effects of a continually high head carriage in horses on the spine and muscles along the back. The handler/obstacle focus balance is definitely an issue in agility. The dog needs to be mindful of the handler and the handler's instructions but to be focused also on the line it is taking and the obstacles in that line. I have also seen dogs with too much handler focus in sheep-herding situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I did a lot of obedience and heeling with Zoe before we did agility. While it caused problems with working on my right hand side, we did not have a focus issue, she was certainly focussed on the obstacle ahead! If I got stuck and forgot the course (which to my embarrassment did happen a bit ) she would stop running and come to me. The best thing in our situation as she is dog aggressive, much better than running off course to be naughty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 We don't want our dogs wrapped either or we will lose marks for crowding but I want the head up and the prancing. Best you trade that Coolie in on a mini poodle then.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Shellybegs...good topic ! I like my dogs to focus but not to the point of continually watching my face during the heeling. Apart from the fact it doesn't look natural, it must be bl**dy uncomfortable for the dog to maintain that type of position all of the time. As long as my dog looks up occasionally and is listening and aware of my position and body language for him to stay close , I'm happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) Best you trade that Coolie in on a mini poodle then.. My Koolie will out prance those Poodles any day, the white socks exaggerate the action. I have also had secret Sue H training. Edited June 25, 2007 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Just wanted to add, We worry about the focus, but my dogs will stare at a ball (willing it to move) for over 30 minutes any day and all day if that is what it takes to get me to thorw it. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for ten minutes focus now and again. Ten minutes would be the absolute maximum an Obedience dog would need to focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 there is a huge difference as i said before between focus and high head heeling i expect 100% focus and i give back the same when we ar wworking but i do not expect my dogs to stare into my eyes and trip over things because they arent looking where they are going rofl I remember a few years back watching a dog heel straight into a poo bin not nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Dunno if it's the focus that is the question, or the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Well it is our job to keep them same while they are giving us such great focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Dunno if it's the focus that is the question, or the position. Sidoney I reckon people seeking the first, are training for the second. They've equated one with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 This is what I try to achieve . . . Me too Kavik - it looks lovely! i've never had a problem with focus in agility either - they aren't looking at me etc, but he is very aware of my body language :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agree that the prancing, glued-close, head-up style of heeling is more of an impractical 'dance' than the demonstration of a useful skill. But isn't that true of all obedience exercises to some extent? You can lose points in each obedience exercise for things that you wouldn't generally care about in "real life", such as a crooked sit in front, picking a dumbbell up by one end, or shuffling his feet in a stand stay, etc. It's not just heeling that is stylised for the ring. I guess in one sense that makes obedience less practical. But on the other hand, obedience is a sport. If the judging was so generous that everyone who completed the exercise reasonably well scored full marks, then how could we determine who the winner was? The judges need some way of deciding who the winning team is, and picking up on these minor points of style is, I guess, as good as any other way. The UK heelwork to my knowledge has always been like that - no vision of light between you and the dog, head up etc,etc. They like that form of heeling over there and I must admit - so do I and I train for that type of heeling (although in AUS you can't have the dog touching you). I think our NZ heeling must be similar to UK heeling then. My obedience instructor says the same thing, that the judge doesn't want to see any daylight between you and the dog. The dog shouldn't impede your movement at all, but he's meant to be close and he's certainly allowed to touch you as you heel along. As for it being "easier" to train a dog to heel while touching you, well perhaps that's true for a tall breed, but as owner of a smaller breed, I think it can be harder to get very close heel. Walking right next to your rapidly moving feet can be quite difficult and quite intimidating to a small dog, and IMO a smaller dog would often naturally prefer to heel a little further away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Amhalite - yes - the NZ work is based heavily on UK - i'm learning about it through a training friend who recently moved to NZ from Oz (well... UK if you want to get technical :D). I agree - what part of 'obedience trialling' is practical? I don't see it in a 'practical' sense - I mean - when is a dog ever going to be sitting there waiting for you to call them? Likewise - when will we every command a sit-stay for 1 min with a whole line of other dogs and a line of handlers at the other end ! It is a sport to me - something that we can use for a 'basis' of control around the home.... but definitely not a sole 'practical' exercise. In arguments to other sports - I find that my dogs distinguish between what we are doing - be it agility, showing or obedience.... or even tricks for that matter ;). It may take a little extra training on your part, but it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Leopuppy: I agree - what part of 'obedience trialling' is practical? I don't see it in a 'practical' sense - I mean - when is a dog ever going to be sitting there waiting for you to call them? Likewise - when will we every command a sit-stay for 1 min with a whole line of other dogs and a line of handlers at the other end ! I prefer to consider that heeling should demonstrate the dog's focus while it displays three "natural" paces and changes of position. It isn't "natural" for a dog to wrap itself around a handler while moving and there's increasing evidence is isn't good for them either. It's the latter part of the statement that concerns me more than any other. I've said this about agility and I'll say it about obedience.. just because a dog "can" do something, doesn't mean that it should have to. Dog sports are moving the way of horse sports which have been around longer and have seen how ego and competitive spirit can compromise the welfare of the animal. The rules here in Oz say quite specificially "no crowding of the handler by the dog".. .if the dog is coming into contact with the handler heeling that's crowding. If it's happening on turns, it's additional cues. You can get very focussed heeling and 200's without wrapping. As I said, don't confuse that position with focus and enthusiasm as some people are inclined to do. If you prefer the 'wrap' style (and lets face it alot of people do) than that's fine. I'd hate to see it as the only style that got full marks though. It is not achieveable by all dogs (conformation rules some out) and IMHO it's not desireable either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted June 27, 2007 Author Share Posted June 27, 2007 What an interesting discussion! Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 I agree - what part of 'obedience trialling' is practical? I don't see it in a 'practical' sense - I mean - when is a dog ever going to be sitting there waiting for you to call them? Likewise - when will we every command a sit-stay for 1 min with a whole line of other dogs and a line of handlers at the other end ! In this, I do see the practicalities that can be attributed to 'real life' - well, at least part-way assimilated to it anyway. I often used a sit or drop stay with my girl. I've used it at an off-leash park so that I could literally body-guard her from a seemingly ownerless dog who was trying to "go" her. I've used it so I could catch another "ownerless" dog in another park. I've used it so I could go over to speak to a person and their dog, but didn't want Kal in too close to that dog. I've used it to let people in the gateway to my property so that she didn't accidentally get in the way. The "line-up" of other dogs and handlers bears some reflection on a dog in "stay" when other dogs are around and when other people are around (distractions). I've used the sit and drop stay whilst other owners recall their dogs to them from that line up. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this type of training and it can apply itself in practical ways in 'real life', provided that in the training "real life" assimilies are proofed for. But with the "heel" - I don't see the practicalities of a dog who can't see what it might be walking into or falling over, for the want of looking to the clouds. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who is working in opposition to its natural skeletal and muscular design. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who 'wraps' to the extent that the owner is inhibited in any way (physically and mentally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) I agree - what part of 'obedience trialling' is practical? I don't see it in a 'practical' sense - I mean - when is a dog ever going to be sitting there waiting for you to call them? Likewise - when will we every command a sit-stay for 1 min with a whole line of other dogs and a line of handlers at the other end ! In this, I do see the practicalities that can be attributed to 'real life' - well, at least part-way assimilated to it anyway. I often used a sit or drop stay with my girl. I've used it at an off-leash park so that I could literally body-guard her from a seemingly ownerless dog who was trying to "go" her. I've used it so I could catch another "ownerless" dog in another park. I've used it so I could go over to speak to a person and their dog, but didn't want Kal in too close to that dog. I've used it to let people in the gateway to my property so that she didn't accidentally get in the way. The "line-up" of other dogs and handlers bears some reflection on a dog in "stay" when other dogs are around and when other people are around (distractions). I've used the sit and drop stay whilst other owners recall their dogs to them from that line up. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this type of training and it can apply itself in practical ways in 'real life', provided that in the training "real life" assimilies are proofed for. But with the "heel" - I don't see the practicalities of a dog who can't see what it might be walking into or falling over, for the want of looking to the clouds. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who is working in opposition to its natural skeletal and muscular design. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who 'wraps' to the extent that the owner is inhibited in any way (physically and mentally). Not wishing to go completely but just wanted to answer this :D. In terms of the stays - yep - I agree that you want the dog to be able to do that - but it is unlikely, except in a training sense that you would have a line of dogs in a stay with a line of handlers looking at the dogs (whether directly or not..).... You almost always ask your dogs to 'stay' in preparation for you being distracted (going to talk to someone else, retrieving another dog, cleaning up/ putting up equipment etc). So because you are constantly moving - not standing there 'staring' (ie: standing still and looking in the direction of the dog) at it, the context has changed .... thats my opinion anyway I do understand what you are trying to say Erny - but I guess I see the heelwork as a 'teamwork' building exercise - the dog must trust you that you aren't going to walk into them, lead them into a brick wall, down a hole or whatever else you may come across ... To me it is the 'ultimate' trust that the dog will be willing to focus purely on you (and no, not necessarily in 'wrapping') and trusting wherever you lead them. In terms of the skeletal and muscular design - ok - again, for extended periods it could pose a problem.... but the heelwork exercise in the ring is all of 2-3 minutes (although it does feel like 2 hours in there !).... training also wouldn't consist of long heeling patterns. Lots of breaks in between etc. On top of that - as PAX said - you strengthen the muscles in the neck - and heel on both sides.... all you end up with is a dog with very strong neck muscles I guess. I find that once dogs find the 'heelwork' rewarding, they will naturally want to look up at you also - and it is something I encourage. I would only use this form of heelwork in training and the ring. If I wanted my dog to walk close to me in a public outing, i'll just tell them 'with me' which limits the extent they can venture away from me- whether off lead or on. Also - perhaps I haven't been around enough - but I honestly haven't noticed a dog with an unsteady gait from this form of heeling, unless the owner has actually taught the dog to 'prance' (and some do!). Just my thoughts ETA - just to clarify - the type of heeling I am after is one like Kavik's pic Edited June 28, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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