ShellyBeggs Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I am not an expert in obedience......far from it, and certainly not in trialling.... But heeling seems to have changed a lot in the last 10 years since I have competed in a trial.. Back in my day (now I feel old)......it was enough that the dog walked/jogged alongside you with its shoulder at your left leg. That it did all exercises (sit, drop, stand, fast/slow pace etc) in this position. Now from watching videos of trials (like that excellent bc in the UK).....it seems that the dog now not only has to do all that, but has to look at you constantly and be in some elevated state of excitement......ie/ skipping alongside you just begging for some command and always looking at your face for that approving smile..... To me it looks like far too much effort and unnatural. I even stayed to watch the trialling class yesturday after my beginners class and they were all teaching the same thing...to always *look*.... I must say, I never would have trialled if this was the case back then.....my lab just always ambled alongside me like clockwork.....he never looked over excited (happy but not excited) and he certainly wouldn't have jogged and definately wasn't looking adoringly at me the whole time. We always scored brilliantly on heeling with comments made that it looked effortless. So what is the go with heeling now? How is it scored now that people are teaching this? Thanks heaps!!! P.S I hope I haven't offended anyone.....just curious about the change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 The dog doesn't have to heel like that according to the rule book. A lot of people now prefer that sort of heeling, myself included. When the dog has so much focus on it's handler, the dog is less likely to miss signals as they are always watching you. A dog shouldn't score higher for that type of heeling or the old style, as long as it stays in position and gets all signals it makes no difference. Some of the older judges don't like the new style of heeling and think the dog is forging, you should go to some trials and watch the dogs and the scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 hiya SB - yes I think the heeling has changed... BUT - if you read the 'rules' there is nothing stating about looking up at you etc - so what you describe, you could still score really well. So long as the dog is consistent and not infront of you one second and lagging the next, as far as *most* judges are concerned and the rule-book is concerned, the heeling you describe is fine. The UK heelwork to my knowledge has always been like that - no vision of light between you and the dog, head up etc,etc. They like that form of heeling over there and I must admit - so do I and I train for that type of heeling (although in AUS you can't have the dog touching you). I think it all comes down to appearance - people who train for the focus like the *look* of it - yet it doesn't mean that a dog watching you out of their peripheral vision can't see you change direction etc.... There is also the argument that a dog physically touching you finds the heeling easier as they just have to follow the guide of your leg..... I like the focus and I like the prancing (although I get them to 'gait' as opposed to 'prance').... I love the way they have complete focus on you also - so I train for that. Doesn't mean that i'm right, my way is the only way, or that someone who trains a dog who doesn't look won't score as high - each dog is just as likely to make the same mistakes . Keep in mind that if you train a dog to be constantly looking at you - you do 'strengthen' those muscles in the neck also - I do lots of tug games to build this up (yes, even with my anti-tugger Leo!). Certainly - your dog is not allowed to go too wide, but AUS doesn't demand the same precision of UK heelwork . You will find the criteria changes per country. Actually - it is not that difficult to teach at all - I found this method (of the focus etc) was MUCH easier than the 'old school' method I was initially taught. Also - it means that you don't have to constantly 'encourage' your dog in 'heel' and thus later have to fade out the talking. Put it this way - I have only spend a VERY short time training Kinta to 'heel' and she is already IMO heeling better than Leo.... just not for the duration yet :p. So although it looks like a lot of work, it honestly isn't! Especially when someone has shown you how to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I dont think heeling has changed much at all over the last 10 years. The main differance is that there are a lot more people training with drive methods these days. Good instructors have always taught focus first, (memory going back at least ti'll the early 1980s). It is nothing new. Leo: Training focus really has nothing to do with the dogs appearance. It is trained for a very good practical reason. Looking good is just a bonus. The UK style of heeling is not trained here because we would be penalised, but a dog that shows high drive in its work is desireable from a practical point. The rules do state that heeling should look "natural" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I agree with Dogdude, I think the main difference is that training styles have changed. There is a lot more training in drive/motivational training used than in the past. It's still fine and acceptable to heel with the dog just at heel and not looking up at you as long as they are consistent and hold position. I prefer the style of the dog prancing along beside you with the head turned up, looking at you. I prefer to have extremely high motivation and focus from the dog. It's just my preference. I also agree that some judges don't like this. It's so subjective. It depends on what suits the dog and the person too, I think. But I don't think anyone should be penalised for either way. If it is consistent and not bumping or lagging, that is what counts. For me though, I feel much more like my dog is working as part of a team when she is looking at me and working with me with total concentration (just wish I could get this in the ring LOL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) I don't trial so I refrain from comment in how it has changed. I must admit I'm not fond of the unnatural constant 'head/nose pointing to the sky' and feel it gives the dog an unnatural gait, but that is simply my own personl preference and opinion - I understand it may not be shared by all. It might not be in the rule-books that dogs must heel this way, but I can see how styles are influenced by what Judges seem to favour at the time. I used to compete in Western style riding. One of the things with this style was that the gait of the horse was required to give the ultimate comfort for the rider - so instead of a 'trot', a 'jog trot' was required. Instead of 'canter' a 'lope' was required. The horse that appeared to move slowly (but still covering ground) ultimately appeared the most comfortable and smooth. And it evolved that these were the horses often put up in the prize winning arena. This of course increased the competition where many riders/handlers/trainers worked to an even slower jog-trot and lope. And so these people got put up in the winning circles. It all eventuated where people worked for so much slowness that the horses' gaits became unnatural. I would see them loping with their front legs, but because the gait was so incredibly slow, they couldn't maintain it easily, so they'd be seen to jog-trot with their back legs. I felt embarressed for these lovely proud creatures ..... watching them was a bit like watching grass grow. I'm no longer involved in the Western riding activities, but do understand the influence has again changed and that riders/trainers are returning to 'smooth but covering ground' again. Certainly an improvement, IMO. All of this is a bit - I'm sorry. But my point is that whilst the "rule-book" might not ask for it, if a certain "style" is the flavour of the month and is being selected/favoured by Judges, then that is what people will aim for and of course, in an effort to be the winning team, they want to do it that bit better than the previous winning competitor and so on and so forth until it becomes somewhat exaggerated and perhaps extreme. Just my 2 cents worth. Edited June 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I think you've nailed it Erny. The further a 'sport' moves from the proof of 'fit for purpose' event it originates as, the more style can be influenced by trends. That slow jog and lope was meant to be a energy efficient, comfortable way of bearing a rider for hours. And yep, when I did Western riding, you saw a lot of disunited loping.. but at least around here it didn't get put up. Once upon a time, obedience training was derived from the test of reliability and responsiveness to a hunter's cues. Provided the dog held the position at the left hand side (away from the gun) and in no way interfered with the hunter then the heel position was satisfactory. Along come people with no knowledge of the way in which a gundog needs to work and they start to concentrate on what wins. The focus changed, the breeds participaring changed, adn so did the scores. Add more "focus" , more exaggerated gaiting and it looks "showy".. and that's what wins. So now we have the exaggerated "wrap" style of heeling that not all dogs can accomplish and that over the long term can cause physical damage to a dog. The dogs are often close enough to breach the rule about no interference with the handler but hey, it looks good so it wins.... sometimes. If you knocked marks off one of these heelers for every time it touched the handler, it sure wouldn't. Ask a hunter if he/she wants a 35kg lab wrapped around their leg as they move through rough ground for a shoot and I think the answer is fairly predictable. There will always be people who choose to exaggerate a natural animal movement to succeed. At least we haven't got to the stage of false hooves, dock nicking and crupper setting of tails that has happened in the USA with a couple of breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I like the exaggerated 'style' of heeling - I think it looks so amazing to watch! Like you are dancing We are able to achieve this at times, with Diesel it does require a bit of work as he has a tendency to be a bit lazy. Spitting food treats does help though When I have been to trials I have only seen a very small number of dogs heeling like this - most do not. The Schutzhund trial I watched included a much larger number of animated high drive heeling, though from the looks of it there doesn't need to be as much precision and the dog is allowed to bump the handler etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I've come to the same conclusion about it being the flavour of the month. Shelly I've been out of competition as long as you have and all my dogs heel in the manner you describe, my girl will offer UK type heeling sometimes but everytime she does one of us ends up tripping over the other! Usually me it has to be said. So I'll stick to the old fashioned way, can't have the judges ruining a perfectly decent pair of pants laughing at one of my particularly graceless face plants! All power to those people who can do UK heeling and stay on their feet. It certainly looks impressive but as I say it's not for the clumsy among us. Isn't very practical in the real would either as has been mentioned. Personally I've often wondered if the dogs get a sore neck craning back and staring up like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Lol I tend to trip over too when Brock offers that sort of heeling! Glad I am not the only one!! My older border used to heel like that without me teaching her, she just did it. I can't really remember anyone talking so much about focus then, this was about 9 years ago. I like something a bit inbetween. I think it actually looks more impressive when the dog isn't staring up all the time as it looks like the dog is heeling of its own accord more. I also don't like how it changes the gait of the dog. I love watching a working dog gliding along. I want my borders to have that look of 'stealth' that they are supposed to have, not be prancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I would think it would develop the back and neck muscles in an uneven way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 its a amatter of choice and many judges consider it crowing Also be aware that it is unatural and can cause strain to neck and shoulders if not balanced wiht work on both sides of the handler Mary ray also mentions this. My sisters sheltie does very exxaggerated heeling head up very high parncing however she also gets a sore outside shoulder a lot personally i like in between i like my dog to be foccussed this does not however mean a dog has to be looking up like that actually a dog can be looking up gazing into your eyes and yet not be foccussedon the job their ears tell different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) Ask a hunter if he/she wants a 35kg lab wrapped around their leg as they move through rough ground for a shoot and I think the answer is fairly predictable. Not a hunter, but I don't want my 25kg Vizsla doing that between the pegs at a retrieving trial when the walk up bird goes up (a bird you fire at while walking, as can happen in a real hunt)! I want him 'heeling', but looking out for that bird Fortunately, there is no fear of him being too fucosed on my face eta. The biggest problem we had at our recent GWT training day and event, was getting the dogs (who all had obedience background) to look out instead of up at their handlers.... Edited June 25, 2007 by FHR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I tried agility with my border that looked up naturally and that was a bit of a disaster! She would basically run into everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) I would think it would develop the back and neck muscles in an uneven way. My thoughts too Sidoney. It almost gives me a headache ..... seeing dogs carrying (or attempting to carry) their necks in a 90 degree angle upwards, continuously over a period. And as the saying goes .... "the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone", I would not be the least surprised if this unnatural carriage has the potential to/does upset the fine tuned balance of animal physique. Edited June 25, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 At the Christine Zink dog sports health seminar I attended she briefly mentioned seeing problems emerging due to the increasing popularity of this kind of heeling. Picture how my miniature poodles would have to hold their heads to achieve this if they were right by my left hand side .. basically they can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 This is what I try to achieve . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 At the Christine Zink dog sports health seminar I attended she briefly mentioned seeing problems emerging due to the increasing popularity of this kind of heeling.Picture how my miniature poodles would have to hold their heads to achieve this if they were right by my left hand side .. basically they can't. Your dogs do heel like that , just they are so small it is not so obvious. Heeling both sides helps to prevent problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 At the Christine Zink dog sports health seminar I attended she briefly mentioned seeing problems emerging due to the increasing popularity of this kind of heeling.Picture how my miniature poodles would have to hold their heads to achieve this if they were right by my left hand side .. basically they can't. Your dogs do heel like that , just they are so small it is not so obvious. Heeling both sides helps to prevent problems. They don't "wrap" Pax.. :p I need to find a pic to show you the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 We don't want our dogs wrapped either or we will lose marks for crowding but I want the head up and the prancing. I know what you mean I am always watching UK heeling dvds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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