Erny Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Thanks Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Domectic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Act (Victoria) A person must not train a dog to attack, bite, rush at, chase or in any way menace persons, animals or anything worn by persons, unless the dog is so trained— (a) in the course of conducting a domestic animal business on premises that is registered under Part 4, if training of such a nature is authorised under that registration: and (b) that person— (i) is conducting; or (ii) is employed by a person who is conducting— a domestic animal business on premises that is registered under Part 4. 34A Dangerous dogs A dog is a dangerous dog if— (a) the dog is kept as a guard dog for the purpose of guarding non-residential premises; or (b) the dog has been trained to attack or bite any person or any thing when attached to or worn by a person. inserted by No. 87/2000 s. 16. The above is the current legislation in Victoria. I am not sure whether all states are the same, but this certainly seems to say, that at least in Victoria, it is illegal to train your dog in the protection phase of Sch, and doing so will render the dog to be declared dangerous, by virtue of this training. This situation should be a worry not only to all Sch enthusiasts here in Vic, but also to anyone here who may import a dog which already has a Sch title. There are many dogs of various breeds, bought into this country for show/breeding purposes who fit this category. Their new owners will probably never continue with this training, but their dogs could still be classed as dangerous. 37 Notification of Council (1) Immediately upon becoming the owner of a dog that has been trained to attack or bite any person or any thing when attached to or worn by a person, the owner of the dog must so notify the Council of the municipal district in which the dog is kept. Penalty: 5 penalty units. (1A) Immediately upon a dog commencing training to attack or bite any person or any thing when attached to or worn by a person, the owner of the dog must notify the Council of the municipal district in which the dog is kept that the dog is being so trained. Penalty: 5 penalty units. I believe that all Breed Clubs which are the custodians of breeds traditionally used for Sch, should band together and make a joint submission to the ANKC to have this sport accepted in Australia. ANKC recognition could go a long way to having amendments to the above laws included to allow people to train and own Sch dogs, without having them declared dangerous. It would also allow the true Sch enthusiast to gain recognition for their dedication in training their animals to such a high degree. We have many highly titled animals here in Aust. and these titles are currently not recognised. Yes, there will always be a few cowboys out there, who only want to train their dogs in the "bite" component, but if the Sch Clubs have their act together (and I believe they do), then this will only apply to a very small minority, who will have to do this type of training with an unoffial body, as any official Sch club worth their salt will not allow this. Remembering that Sch has 3 components, tracking, obedience and protection. Great topic Reddog !! Regards Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityBites Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 I am a member of a schutzhund club and hope to be able to train my boy and eventually compete him. Erny has seen him and I doubt she would ever consider him dangerous In fact he's the biggest sook I have ever had! But the amount of time and effort and responsibility that goes into training a dog up in the levels is enormous!! There is obedience, agility, retrieval work, tracking and bitework. It is a combination of so many different things that I am impressed by anyone that can title their dogs! I am currently training to be a vet nurse, and eventually want to trial and breed dobermans specifically for shutzhund and IPO work. Maybe I shouldn't make that statement , but I would like the australian dobermans to be more competative here, and I will refuse to breed with anything that CAN'T get titled, I would like to show as well, but to me, if a dog can prove itself to be obedient and calm in this field, then it is worth continuing and I wish the general public could see that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceanaussi Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I've done Schutzhund training in Germany but not in Australia. Is there a club around Brisbane where you can do that? What about a Weimaraner entering? Would that be allowed? Does anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) it is illegal to train your dog in the protection phase of Sch, and doing so will render the dog to be declared dangerous, by virtue of this training. No it's not... and No it wont.... This situation should be a worry not only to all Sch enthusiasts here in Vic, but also to anyone here who may import a dog which already has a Sch title. There are many dogs of various breeds, bought into this country for show/breeding purposes who fit this category. Their new owners will probably never continue with this training, but their dogs could still be classed as dangerous. Australian United Schutzhund Clubs are very please to announce that the decision on the appeal lodged in the Administration appeals Tribunal of Victoria, against the declaration of Mr. ++++++' male Rottweiler ++++++= (A) BH ZTP AD as a dangerous dog was set aside. The presiding member in making his decision to set aside the declaration made the following findings. 1. " I find on the evidence before me that such attack is limited on the sleeve worn by the helper or agitator and does not ever or in any way extend to an attack on any other portion of his or her person, with the focus of the dog being on the hesian or padded sleeve." 2. "In my view the can be best described as sterile or simulated or hollow." 3. "I find further on the evidence there is no basis whatsoever for the suggestion which was raised at the hearing before me that there is a risk of "boilover" or that there is a "second command" whereby the dog is required to follow the attack on the sleeve by making a further or extended attack on another part or other parts of the person of the helper." 4. "I find on the evidence that, apart from the subject training attacks, the subject dog has never attacked or bittern a person and that such training has not rendered it more likely to do so but rather, if anything, less likely." 5. "I find that the subject training is far removed from the training undergone by guard or security dogs were the entirely different objective is to injure and where the helper wears a full body protective suit." Above is the only case in the whole of Australia where a Schutzhund dog had been declared dangerous, and as you can see from the 5 findings the Judge turned over the decision.... Edited out names There is no longer any Schutzhund training clubs in Australia so i guess it doesnt matter if undertaking Schutzhund training renders a dog to be declared dangerous or not, (as IPO is a different dogsport) Edited July 10, 2007 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Brisbane clubs Brisbane Sporting Dog Club East Coast Performance Training Group Weim's are not allowed to trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceanaussi Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Thanks for that. A bit strange so, the Weim is a German dog and I know quite a few people in Europe entering theirs in comps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 They must be under a different affiliation, Australia goes under the rules of the FCI where only certain breeds which are recognised by the FCI as herding/guarding breeds can compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 There is no longer any Schutzhund training clubs in Australia so i guess it doesnt matter if undertaking Schutzhund training renders a dog to be declared dangerous or not, (as IPO is a different dogsport) What is the difference between Schutzund and IPO? Does that mean that dogs cannot get Sch titles in Australia? I have recently learnt a little about this type of training and was able to watch a trial not long ago. Many years ago i thought schutzund training basically meant that a dog was trained to attack. I have since learned that the protection phase is a character test to test their confidence and ability under pressure etc. They only ever bite the sleeve, so they are not attacking a person at all. Just biting a sleeve. It is a shame that so few dog people know anything about this type of training. I still have tonnes to learn but i think it is a great sport that requires alot of dedication and should have alot more recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 What is the difference between Schutzund and IPO? Does that mean that dogs cannot get Sch titles in Australia? The main differences are with the tracking rules and "bitework" phase, IPO waters down these rules so it is easier for dogs to pass . You will no longer be able to gain Schutzhund titles in Australia but you are able to gain IPO titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 isnt it that in IPO you can gain titles for certain parts such as tracking or obedience where in Sch you had to do all 3 to get the titles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) I have been toold stories than... However I noticed that the next trial in QLD offers along the BH and IPO I-IIIsome levels such as FH I-II, TR 1-3, OB 1-3, isnt it titles for parts of the IPO? First pdf on this website http://www.sportdogaustralia.com/events/events.htm#Trials Edited July 10, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 FH I-II, TR 1-3, OB 1-3, isnt it titles for parts of the IPO? These are not considered "IPO" titles.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Quote from Jeff 10th July. Australian United Schutzhund Clubs are very please to announce that the decision on the appeal lodged in the Administration appeals Tribunal of Victoria, against the declaration of Mr. ++++++' male Rottweiler ++++++= (A) BH ZTP AD as a dangerous dog was set aside. The presiding member in making his decision to set aside the declaration made the following findings. 1. " I find on the evidence before me that such attack is limited on the sleeve worn by the helper or agitator and does not ever or in any way extend to an attack on any other portion of his or her person, with the focus of the dog being on the hesian or padded sleeve." 2. "In my view the can be best described as sterile or simulated or hollow." 3. "I find further on the evidence there is no basis whatsoever for the suggestion which was raised at the hearing before me that there is a risk of "boilover" or that there is a "second command" whereby the dog is required to follow the attack on the sleeve by making a further or extended attack on another part or other parts of the person of the helper." 4. "I find on the evidence that, apart from the subject training attacks, the subject dog has never attacked or bittern a person and that such training has not rendered it more likely to do so but rather, if anything, less likely." 5. "I find that the subject training is far removed from the training undergone by guard or security dogs were the entirely different objective is to injure and where the helper wears a full body protective suit." Above is the only case in the whole of Australia where a Schutzhund dog had been declared dangerous, and as you can see from the 5 findings the Judge turned over the decision.... Edited out names Hi Jeff, yes, the information you have provided above is absolutely correct. Many people at the time received this news greatfully, as it seemed as though the Dogsport enthusiast would now have an avenue to continue to train their dogs without the fear of them being declared dangerous. However, the wording of the legislation at the time of this case, was not the same as it is now. (See below) 34A Dangerous dogs A dog is a dangerous dog if— (a) the dog is kept as a guard dog for the purpose of guarding non-residential premises; or (b) the dog has been trained to attack or bite any person or any thing when attached to or worn by a person. The words I have highlited are those that were added after this case. It was because these specific words were not included in the legislation at the time, that this case was able to be argued successfully. Subsequently, these few extra words were all that was needed to be added, to now close this loophole to anyone else. The legislation is now quite clear. Although it does not specifically mention SCH, IPO, it does cover the type of training that these sports entail. I do not support this legislation, but I was merely trying to point out in my original post, that we do have a problem here in Victoria, re; the possibility of having our dogs declared dangerous. I don't know the answer to the problem that Dogsport people Australia wide face. The public is ignorant to what it's all about, and their opinions are largely fuelled by an even more ignorant media, who continually sensationalise stories of dog attacks. As I said in my earlier post, I believe that gaining recognition from the ANKC would be a great step forward for the sport. Regards Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 (b) the dog has been trained to attack or bite anyperson or any thing when attached to or worn by a person. So anyone that is holding a kong on a string and is playing tug with their maltese can get a dangerous warning for it, by the looks of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityBites Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 LOL! I was thinking the exact same thing! No more tug of war games with your dog, or it will be declared dangerous! What is the world coming too......................... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 The legislation is now quite clear. Although it does not specifically mention SCH, IPO, it does cover the type of training that these sports entail. I would say the legislation is not clear which is why in the twenty five odd years Schutzhund has been in Australia noone has been succesfully charged with owning a Dangerous Dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) Has anyone been to the Illawarra one? Am going this Sunday to check It out Any info on what they are like, greatly appreciated, Hope to get my girl In, but she won't be competing though! Even If we can just do the obediance and tracking part of It, I'll be happy, at least I think I'll be allowed to use a muzzle on her. ETA: Oh and BUMP Edited July 26, 2007 by RottnBullies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianto Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Has anyone been to the Illawarra one? Am going this Sunday to check It out Any info on what they are like, greatly appreciated, Hope to get my girl In, but she won't be competing though! Even If we can just do the obediance and tracking part of It, I'll be happy, at least I think I'll be allowed to use a muzzle on her. ETA: Oh and BUMP I went to Illawarra a few years ago when it was on Saturdays. The trainer was great and the people were very friendly and helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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