Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Sarah L]

Hi myszka,

The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour. Also I am very fortunate to have worked in the veterinary profession both in this country and the UK, and have been consulting with colleagues both here and the UK to further my knowledge in this subject. My particular interest lies with the effect to the dogs cortisol and heart rate increase eg... (stress factors) and what effect if any, prolonged or miss use of these devices, would have a long term affect on the dogs health and cognitive functions.

[Sarah L]

Actually Erny what you think I have to catch up on is one method used in dog training, as I have stated before I have never had to use such a devise, as my many applied techniques in dog training have worked with very good success.

But good on you if you would like to research more techniques to use than E collars.

[Erny]

[Steve K9Pro]

P: The success of the tool depends on the information given by the trainer and how well it is understood & used by the owner.

K9: So, by you being against these tools, your saying you arent qualified to use them or train orthers too?

P: Whether you use the terminology of shock or e collar makes no difference it is still electoral impulses being sent to the dogs brain that would not normally be produced by the dog. This was done away with in humans in the 1930's because it did not work in solving behavioural problems.

K9: I hope that people read the above quote & understand why people like you should not be giving advice on things they know zero about...

Even old shock collars, that differ from todays devices in the fact that the level of electrical stimulation was many times higher than it is today. Back then a "shock" was delivered to the animal at a high intensity, often a static discharge. It never was a device that effected the brain in any way...

Modern e collars are quite different in their design as they have both the positive & the negative probe on the collar so that, current only travels between the two points, approx 40mm of skin is required to complete the circuit between the two probes..

Again, nothing to effect the brain at all...

LOL, where were you in the 1930's ?

P: I am 5'2 inches and of very slim build. In fact I weigh exactly 46 kilos. For me, as a trainer, the size of the dog has nothing to do with it's problem nor my beliefs. I stated earlier that I have never used these tools in my training, this is a fact, not a political belief.

K9: Yes, but its our political belief & miss informed opinion that has denied you years of use of tools that are very effective.

P: Some trainers have learned far more than what was taught to them in their original profession and I am proud to say I am one of them.

K9: It is a shame that what you have learned is incorrect then isnt it...

P: Remember a flat collar is just a tool.

K9: duh... really, Didnt I write that?

P: I find that when I use it in conjunction with my training techniques, a flat collar can be a useful tool regardless of the size or temperament of the dog or handler. I have dealt with many large breed dogs with so called high drive, in fact they are often neurotic dogs, frustrated as their training has nothing to do with the lifestyle the dog actually leads compared to the life the trainer thinks the dog should be leading. I was taught by a very wise person who once said that training is all about technique not brawn or quick fixes to make the trainer look good.

K9: I have been taught by over 100 000 clients that results are what people want, not gimmicks...

Many of the dogs I work with I can easily control, train & erase undesireable behaviours, I can, but it isnt about what I can do, it isnt my dog & there are too many trainers who show people what can be done, only for those clients never to be able to repeat it at home...

This is de motivating to the owners & often leads them to a belief that they will never have success with their dog & they give up...

P: I don't actually have a one sided opinion on this subject

K9: of course you do, you decided that you wouldnt use them, it doesnt get more one sided than that...

P: that is why I am seeking a more in depth opinion and doing further research on the subject.

K9: Being used in what method? turn up the collar & blast the dog? Thats about as accurate as me beating you with a flat collar & asking you how positive you think they are now?

Nearly every study conducted on e collars has been completed by people who already had a negative opinion & set out to prove themselves right..

Every study I has seen was based on high level use of the collar...

Why dont you read my article http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=etruth.html

P: The problem as I see it so far, is that when electrical shock waves in a dogs brain are given externally you never know the dog's true capacity or what the dog can achieve given the right circumstances.

K9: If what you have concluded in yoru research is that shock waves are sent to the dogs brain, you need to give up right now...

P: If a trainer can not give the right circumstances to a problem then they should not attempt to give an uninformed opinion.

K9: Now if that were true, you wouldnt be posting now would you...?

P: I have researched many behavioural tools in dog training and will continue to do so. Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the current results I am getting, I do not feel the need to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in their effectiveness.

K9: right, so what your saying is...

1. I have researched many behavioural tools in dog training and will continue to do so.

K9: ok got that part straight..

2. Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the current results I am getting, I do not feel the need to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in their effectiveness.

K9: so, you have researched tools & will continue to do so but you wont use any new tools as your getting results?????

I have to ask again, where were you in the 1930's? rofl.. someone send electrical impulses to your brain? sorry just kidding....

P: The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour.

K9: Your seeking advice on training tools from a vet? lol... good luck..

Edited July 19, 2007 by K9 Force

[MonElite]

Hi myszka,

The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour. My particular interest lies with the effect to the dogs cortisol and heart rate increase eg... (stress factors) and what effect if any, prolonged or miss use of these devices, would have a long term affect on the dogs health and cognitive functions.

If you are doing this I suggest you do some reasearch into physio papers and how does the TENS machine works and what is the effect of it on muscles, ligaments, human brain activity and so on. What are the results of the prolonged use on low or medium stimuli, which is below the pain threshold level. The outpt current of the ecollar is the same as the TENS.

Good luck

[Erny]

Pinnacle ............ it seems to me that you have a lot of words to share, but none of them bear any weight of "meaning".

You have spoken about the e-collar without exhibiting an ounce of knowledge about them - how they work; why they work; etc.

How far into your "research" are you?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the current results I am getting ...

• What "current results" are you achieving;
  
• In relation to what behaviour problems; and
  
• Over what time frame?
  

I do not feel the need to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in their effectiveness.

• The other "methods" you speak of have been proven in their effectiveness in various and specific applications. I'm not sure therefore what you are trying to say here, but it sounds as though you are saying that you have your own method but have not explored the e-collar as an alternative. That may be fair enough (if the method you use is the best for everyone concerned) - but I don't think your argument can be that the e-collar is unproven in its effectiveness for you as this implies you've trialled its use and assumes you've done so appropriately and with at least some degree of skill.
  

In fact what can you argue (ie debate) against the e-collar at all, if you don't have any knowledge of it?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: This article may also be of interest on using an e collar...its called "Why use a remote collar"

Edited July 19, 2007 by K9 Force

[Rom]

Hi myszka,

The way I am researching the subject is to examine case studies, veterinary/behavioural papers written on the testing and the outcome of tests using these devices to cure animal behaviour. My particular interest lies with the effect to the dogs cortisol and heart rate increase eg... (stress factors) and what effect if any, prolonged or miss use of these devices, would have a long term affect on the dogs health and cognitive functions.

If you are doing this I suggest you do some reasearch into physio papers and how does the TENS machine works and what is the effect of it on muscles, ligaments, human brain activity and so on. What are the results of the prolonged use on low or medium stimuli, which is below the pain threshold level. The outpt current of the ecollar is the same as the TENS.

Good luck

TENS = transcellular electrical nerve stimulation. I had this treatment through a physio in the mid 80's to help heal damaged nerves in my arm. Back then the TENS unit was a huge piece of machinery that you had to wheel around. Now you can buy small take home units that would fit in your handbag. At best, it was a really relaxing sensation. At worst, if the physio set the unit too high, the muscles in my arm would clench in rhythm with the pulse from the unit. Note, the effect was localised to my arm.

I recently had the opportunity to visit an obedience school that specialises in dog aggression problems. It was amazing to see these dogs working on loose lead walking in a social group together. They use an e-collar on some of the dogs there. I actually had the e-collar put on me and I could just percieve the sensation at level 4, most of the dogs there had been trained on level 2 (Brand was Innotek Field Pro I think).

[Kelpie-i]

I actually had the e-collar put on me and I could just percieve the sensation at level 4, most of the dogs there had been trained on level 2 (Brand was Innotek Field Pro I think).

Rom, I didn't feel the stim until level 4 either when my OH tried it on me. I have a really funny story about the e-collar and my OH, but that's the subject of another thread.

[Erny]

Kelpie-i .............. if it wasn't for the fact that I know about your e-collar experience, what you've written carries a suggestion of kinkiness.

Not to get of course.

Speaking of "off topic" - apologies to the OP. Seems her thread has travelled away from the original intended subject somewhat.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Kelpie-i .............. if it wasn't for the fact that I know about your e-collar experience, what you've written carries a suggestion of kinkiness.

Erny get that mind out of the gutter .......All's I'm implying is that men... well not all men, just my OH and gadgets should not be allowed in the same room together.

[jesomil]

I have a really funny story about the e-collar and my OH, but that's the subject of another thread.

;) Well you cant say that and not tell the story :rolleyes:

what you've written carries a suggestion of kinkiness.

;) My exact thoughts. Now we are left to wander exectly what your OH got up to with an e collar .

[Rom]

....mmmm....now my mind is throwing up pictures of all sorts of battery operated toys..... :rolleyes:

[Sarah L]

K9: It is a shame that what you have learned is incorrect then isnt it...

K9: so, you have researched tools & will continue to do so but you wont use any new tools as your getting results?????

I have to ask again, where were you in the 1930's? rofl.. someone send electrical impulses to your brain? :rolleyes: sorry just kidding....

K9, I started, once again, to reply to every single statement where you have misquoted me or purposely misunderstood me. In reality this is a complete waste of my time & I am sure yours as well, since I am sure you will continue to attempt to discredit me.

Let's just recap...this is what I wrote that apparently made you feel so threatened that you needed to launch into an attack of my credibility:

On the subject of electric shock collars or prong collars to cure dogs of problems, I personally have never had to use any of these with any of my clients to cure their dogs problems. I am currently researching with veterinary assistance the negatives versus positives use of such devices.

The reason I entered this thread was to share my views on how I would treat a fear/anxiety issue. From memory, you agreed with what I wrote, but felt the need to defend your territory after I made passing reference to tools that it seems you use as part of your training methods. One of the biggest assets I believe any dog trainer can have is the ability to understand (and not purposely misunderstand, as is the case here) what is being communicated to them by clients or peers. I can only hope that the way you communicate to your own clients is not similar to the defensive and blatant attempt on your part to discredit another trainer whose views or methods you know nothing about. I am sorry K9, but this shows an ignorance and close-minded attitude on your part. May I suggest until you know how another trainer works or what they have learned or believe, that you keep your misinformed beliefs to yourself.

Once more for the record, I will state that I am satisfied with my current methods of dog training which do not include the use of E Collars or prong collars. Why on earth should this be a problem for you or anyone else on DOL? Right now my clients are getting the results they are after and since this is my goal, I am happy and so are they. As far as explaining what my methods are…is that a question you (or any of us) could answer yourself in a few paragraphs? While I have some obvious basic rules & protocols I follow, my methods are tailored depending on the dog & owner I am facing each day.

Maybe if you have problems with my training and/or creditability we should address it in another thread so as not to hijack this one any further.

[Erny]

Pinnacle - please refer back to my earlier post (#47) above - I'd be interested in hearing from you in relation to the queries raised there. It is fairly obvious from what you have written about or in reference to e-collars that you don't as yet fully understand them or their use, nor the advantages of it. Whilst I hear what you say (ie that you're achieving results that you and your clients are happy with) I'm really interested to know, therefore, how you can discount the correct application of e-collars if you have no comparison/bench mark to measure from. In other words - maybe it's possible that you'd receive even greater achievement that what you presently do, or even perhaps the same or better in a shorter period of time. Perhaps you're dealing with dogs who's temperaments and/or issues don't need to prescribe to any method other than the "positive" one/s that you are applying - but then, what happens when that ends up not being sufficient? These questions/suggestions are the point of my earlier post.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Erny

[Vickie]

K9, I started, once again, to reply to every single statement where you have misquoted me or purposely misunderstood me. In reality this is a complete waste of my time & I am sure yours as well, since I am sure you will continue to attempt to discredit me.

Good on you for rising above the games people play when they are threatened. I guess I should have warned you when I invited you to this forum, that often newcomers are subjected to people ignoring all the beneficial information they give & "picking on" anything they can find to create conflict. So you have my apology for this.

I hope this does not put you off the training forum. You have a lot to offer people here, based on your experience & success and it would be a great shame if you didn't share what you have learned over the years. There are lots of well intentioned people here, many of whom I respect greatly & some I don't, but in general I think you will find most people are open to new ideas, appreciative and eager to learn.

Once again I thank you for saving Zeus's life...twice. All the theory/tools in the world could not have saved him the second time, and we will be forever grateful that you had both the experience to accurately assess the situation & conviction to act as you did.

When I met you, I was pregant with 2 entire male adolescent dogs, one with fear based aggression to the point where he could hardly function & the other with high prey drive & dominance issues. Looking at the 2 sweet old guys now, you'd hardly know that they were a disaster waiting to happen.

Vickie, Zeus & Noah

Edited July 21, 2007 by Vickie

[Erny]

Good on you for rising above the games people play when they are threatened.

Hey Vicki - it's not "games" where I'm concerned, nor is it a case where I feel threatened. I use all sorts of different varieties of training and behavioural methods and tools - whichever will suit the dog, the behaviour issue in question and the current circumstances that it is in at the time. I don't use an e-collar on every dog for every instance, but I don't write off the benefits an e-collar can provide either.

When a person joins a discussion discounting and/or rejecting the use of any piece of training equipment though, I really like to know what that rejection is based on. In Pinnacle's case, it has been merely because what she's done with whatever dogs she has worked with has worked for her. But Pinnacle hasn't really identified the 'benchmark' on which that is based.

For example (and even 'e-collar' aside), I could attest to using a specific training tool and/or method and be successful at it. That doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done better or more proficiently with the use of a different training tool, or for that matter, method. It also doesn't mean that what I've done and/or doing is going to work as well for one dog as it does for all others.

Also, how can you intelligently reject a certain training tool when you don't understand how it works nor how to appropriately and properly apply it?

Edited July 21, 2007 by Erny

[Sarah L]

- 01:47 PM' post='1903678']Hey Vicki - it's not "games" where I'm concerned, nor is it a case where I feel threatened. I use all sorts of different varieties of training and behavioural methods and tools - whichever will suit the dog, the behaviour issue in question and the current circumstances that it is in at the time. I don't use an e-collar on every dog for every instance, but I don't write off the benefits an e-collar can provide either.

Maybe not, but it seems to be the only one your focusing on. If E collars were banned tomorrow or not available for use, are you saying you would not be able to help dogs with serious issue's?

-When a person joins a discussion discounting and/or rejecting the use of any piece of training equipment though, I really like to know what that rejection is based on. In Pinnacle's case, it has been merely because what she's done with whatever dogs she has worked with has worked for her. But Pinnacle hasn't really identified the 'benchmark' on which that is based.

Hey Erny - What does the term research mean to you? If it means that you are discounting something then I am afraid you are wrong. The original discussion was on fear/anxiety not E collars. The fact that someone is willing to research all angles of something before they commit them selves on using it. I feel this is a testament to the persons ability and not just using something as a short cut to get results quicker. Every training method has side effects whether they be positive or negative training methods. If you have not researched this angle in your work, then please do not presume someone else has done the same.

-For example (and even 'e-collar' aside), I could attest to using a specific training tool and/or method and be successful at it. That doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done better or more proficiently with the use of a different training tool, or for that matter, method. It also doesn't mean that what I've done and/or doing is going to work as well for one dog as it does for all others.

Hello! you do attest to using other training methods, but what you are saying is when you run out of idea's or what you know does not work then you use an E collar for a result, is this correct? please do not presume this applies to me. I have had the greatest of fortune in working in the professional service's, the veterinary industry and the pet dog industry in in the UK. The veterinary and pet dog industry here in Australia. I have gained qualifications theoretical and practical knowledge in all, and a lot of experience. I have purposely set out in my dog career to learn and continue to learn as much as I can, and not just think every issue is a leadership/rank issue.

Also, how can you intelligently reject a certain training tool when you don't understand how it works nor how to appropriately and properly apply it?

So you see Erny I think I am quite intelligent enough to firstly have an opinion on one kind of training tool then research all aspects of the use and side effects of a tool and free to choose whatever method is best for the dog and owner I am dealing with at the time. If you disagree with a person doing as much as they can in the dog industry then you are wrong and the only person who seems to discounting and presuming things is you. If you also think I have not dealt with aggressive dogs in whatever their aggression is surfacing towards then once again you are wrong. Also Erny I did take part in a six week trial on the use of E collars but this was not sufficient for me and please read properly I did say for me. Now a few years on I am doing further research. In the end it is up to the individual trainer whether they use them or not, however your quote on how an E collar would bring me more quicker or more proficient result is really another presumption isn't it, not an actual fact.

[Erny]

Maybe not, but it seems to be the only one your focusing on.

Only because the subject (ie e-collar) has come up - and is one that you too have contributed toward.

If E collars were banned tomorrow or not available for use, are you saying you would not be able to help dogs with serious issue's?

For the most part, no, I'm not saying that. But for some issues, as well as could be achieved with the well applied use of an e-collar? - maybe not. Depends on what those issues are.

Hey Erny - What does the term research mean to you?

To me "research" is the investigation of facts to collect information on a subject. You've written about the e-collar being no different in application than a shock collar. If that's what you believe then this is where I question how far into your research you are. Today's e-collars deliver a stimulation. They are recognised in this for their difference from the historical 'shock-collars'.

The original discussion was on fear/anxiety not E collars.

I agree and apologise to the OP for this interlude. But as you have raised comments in relation to the e-collar and your "research" into it which beg to question, I think it is warranted that clarity be reached here, otherwise passive readers may misunderstand your writings and inference that the e-collar is not a tool of good use when one trains using techniques such as you do (whatever they might be and for whatever dogs, issues and circumstances they might be).

The fact that someone is willing to research all angles of something before they commit them selves on using it.

Where has anyone argued that research is a bad thing? Provided the research is current and up-to-date (unless you are planning to study for historical purposes) both in relation to the modern day e-collar and methodology. Because of statements such as ..

... it is still electoral impulses being sent to the dogs brain ...

.. I don't get the impression that you have appreciated this aspect - although I stand to be corrected if this is not the case.

... and not just using something as a short cut to get results quicker.

What is wrong with achieving the most expedient results possible? IMO this is ultimately in the best interests of all concerned - especially the dog. Remember - we are talking about stim levels that are often even less disturbing to a dog than a number of other training equipment styles. Although admittedly the stim might make the dog want to scratch an itch where the 'buzz' of the stimulation is felt. The quicker a dog learns the less stress it will undergo. I can't see why or how you should have a problem with that?

Every training method has side effects whether they be positive or negative training methods. If you have not researched this angle in your work, then please do not presume someone else has done the same.

The only presumption I could make is due to the manner in which you have made reference to the e-collar. It doesn't sound to me as though you have begun that research or if you have, that you have not yet accessed the collar as it is today nor the methodology for its use. I agree with your statement that every training method has side effects (or affects) - which is why I don't shut my mind to a method or equipment style. You have inferred to the same presumption you have asked me to avoid - if I've written anything here in relation to the e-collar which can be declared as incorrect, please point out to me where.

Hello! you do attest to using other training methods ...

Please draw my attention to where any have said otherwise?

...but what you are saying is when you run out of idea's or what you know does not work then you use an E collar for a result...

These are your words, not mine by a long shot.

... is this correct?

No.

...please do not presume this applies to me.

It seems you presume I am presuming. The difference here is that unlike you, I do not turn my mind against any equipment or tool. This affords me and the dogs the luxury of being able to use what will work best, for the best reasons and for the best interests of the dog. Nothing is discounted. Perhaps you will be likewise once you've completed your research on the e-collar?

I have had the greatest of fortune in working in the professional service's, the veterinary industry and the pet dog industry in in the UK. The veterinary and pet dog industry here in Australia. I have gained qualifications theoretical and practical knowledge in all, and a lot of experience.

That's very good and for the purposes of this discussion I'm not questioning your experiences - only that in relation to the e-collar and only because you've written in opposition to it but in a way that depicts you don't fully understand it. That's why I ask how far into your research you are.

I have purposely set out in my dog career to learn and continue to learn as much as I can ...

As most of us do.

... and not just think every issue is a leadership/rank issue.

Being a pack leader is very important IMO ............ but who said "every issue is a leadership/rank issue"?

So you see Erny I think I am quite intelligent enough to firstly have an opinion on one kind of training tool then research all aspects of the use and side effects of a tool ...

Of course you are - but as you've implied that e-collars are not necessary nor desirable and as you haven't indicated how far into your e-collar research you are, nor written anything that implies knowledge of current day use or effect, what are you basing your opinion on?

... and free to choose whatever method is best for the dog and owner I am dealing with at the time.

And again you're right! And we should know of and understand as much about methods and as many as possible, just as we should about the equipment available to us - especially before we claim they are unneccessary, because it will always remain possible that one day you'll work with a dog where the e-collar would have given the best results for you AND the dog, in the best way possible.

If you disagree with a person doing as much as they can in the dog industry then you are wrong ...

Where did I say that?

... and the only person who seems to discounting and presuming things is you.

Presumption again? I can only read what you write. And what you've written in relation to the e-collar is contra-evidenced to proper understanding of it as it is today.

If you also think I have not dealt with aggressive dogs in whatever their aggression is surfacing towards then once again you are wrong.

Until right now I had no idea of what issues you've had experience with so didn't know what to think.

Also Erny I did take part in a six week trial on the use of E collars but this was not sufficient for me and please read properly I did say for me.

Yes - I've read carefully - it wasn't sufficient for you. I would be genuinely interested to know/hear what that course comprised of - what theories were taught, what practical handling was afforded you and how long ago that was.

... your quote on how an E collar would bring me more quicker or more proficient result ...

You need to be a little careful not to twist words. I think you are making reference here to this following quote?

Erny: In other words - maybe it's possible that you'd receive even greater achievement that what you presently do, or even perhaps the same or better in a shorter period of time. Perhaps you're dealing with dogs who's temperaments and/or issues don't need to prescribe to any method other than the "positive" one/s that you are applying - but then, what happens when that ends up not being sufficient?

... is really another presumption isn't it not an actual fact.

Well - the fact is that what I've said about achieving the same if not higher results in a shorter time frame is that it is a possibility.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Erny