Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: your right, they dont think of the consequences....

[Sarah L]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

Why do people get puppies they can't train? IMO, lots of reasons.

Because they pick a dog breed based on appearance, or based on misleading advice from a petshop or unethical breeder, and don't research the probable temperament of the dog.

or because they have never owned a dog before, or never owned a "difficult" breed, so simply don't understand that most dogs actually do need ongoing training.

or because they get a mixed breed dog from a shelter or BYB, and end up with a larger or more fiesty dog than they expected.

In a perfect world, owner education could deal with the first problems perhaps, but not really the last ones. There will always be mixed breed pups that need adoption, and that end up being bigger or more energetic than the owner expects. And even purebred dogs sometimes end up with atypical temperament quirks that the owner or breeder didn't expect them to have. And accidents do happen. What if a person adopts a young large breed dog, and then suffers an accident or injury that made them less physically capable?

And please don't forget us people who adopt adult dogs, and either intentionally or unintentionally end up having to deal with behaviour problems that we didn't create. ;)

I am not forgetting people who adopt adult dogs, this is why all pounds should have a testing and training programe in place. I know this may be a difficult thing to achieve but people always using terms like (in a perfect world) to me is an excuse for "its all to difficult so lets not even try". Knowing all the reasons you do about why people get dogs, what if they have an accident, there will always be pups who grow up bigger and more fiisty than the owner expects ,then why not gear training classes towards teaching people these things before they get a dog. I am sure dog clubs could advertise a new class that people can go to before they get a dog a long with private trainers doing the same. You then advise people of the pit falls first, then teach them to train the proper dog for them. I think this would go along way to lowering the amount of dogs that need adoption in the first place. I know there will always be dogs needing adoption but lets stop shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted so to speak.

[Sarah L]

K9 I do want people to let their dogs play with other dogs, however I think you are either reading more into what I wrote and think that I advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets. Or I did not explain it in idiot proof form. This is not the case. As I said the first thing I teach a pup is to sit and focus then to meet and greet in calm behaviour. Then when I have taught a solid recall and make it more fun for the pup to return to me under any distraction I would let if off lead to play with a dog it meets. A recall is very acheivable under these circumstances. So you see K9 there is no need to inflict all sorts of retraint/correction on something that has been trained properly in the first place.

May I ask how you would socialise a pup to other dogs?

[Cosmolo]

Pinnacle- in the 2 years that we have been promoting "pre puppy classes"- specifically targetted toward people before they get a dog or puppy- we have had 2 enquiries and NO bookings. Every other service, including When Freddy Meets Fido (for pregnant people with dogs) does extremely well but trying to convince people to educate themselves ahead of time is not as easy as it seems. Would it help? Yes, of course- but we can't force people to do it. I am interested to hear how you would promote it and get people interested in doing it.

As for the adult dogs in pounds and shelters- many have already been well and truly desensitised to voice and a flat collar and lead. Does that mean they should fail an assessment? Even though i can put a piece of equipment on them and get great results?

Just because trainers have tool boxes, doesn't mean they ignore everything else relating to the dog. It allows trainers and more importantly owners to implement training more easily. I am yet to understand how that can be a bad thing.

[Cosmolo]

I also think Erny makes an excellent point in suggesting that dogs are walked more on lead than ever before. Expectations of dogs have changed in a huge way over time- i was talking to a friend just the other day about how i used to be chased by a little dog every day on my way to school. Nobody ever thought to call the council or make a complaint so the dog was always roaming and being a nuisance.

If that happened today, the council would be called in no time and the issue dealt with sooner rather than later. People expect their dogs to be able to cope with such a wide range of situations- and the training carried out needs to keep this in mind.

[Steve K9Pro]

P: K9 I do want people to let their dogs play with other dogs, however I think you are either reading more into what I wrote and think that I advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets.

K9: I dont think I suggested that you said you advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets... But I cant see how it is any better playing with one dog or any dog? Other than the risk of being attacked is reduced...

You still have a high value reward that you need to call your dog away from...

P: Or I did not explain it in idiot proof form

K9: no need for defence...

P: As I said the first thing I teach a pup is to sit and focus then to meet and greet in calm behaviour. Then when I have taught a solid recall and make it more fun for the pup to return to me under any distraction I would let if off lead to play with a dog it meets.

K9: how exactly do you manage to make yourself more fun, when you are the one expecting the pup to sit calmly, & the other just plays with no rules...?

P: A recall is very acheivable under these circumstances. So you see K9 there is no need to inflict all sorts of retraint/correction on something that has been trained properly in the first place.

K9: Well thanks for the lesson in dog training, I will have to keep all that in mind...

I wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall, with any method... To suggest this will happen this easy is blue sky stuff..

P: May I ask how you would socialise a pup to other dogs?

K9: sure, read away... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=neutralisation

[Rom]

May I ask how you would socialise a pup to other dogs?

If I may answer this is how K9 would socialise a pup. Having gone through some of the experiences that I have with my girl, I'm definitely going to implement this program with my next dog....for a whole host of reasons.

Pinnacle- in the 2 years that we have been promoting "pre puppy classes"- specifically targetted toward people before they get a dog or puppy- we have had 2 enquiries and NO bookings. Every other service, including When Freddy Meets Fido (for pregnant people with dogs) does extremely well but trying to convince people to educate themselves ahead of time is not as easy as it seems. Would it help? Yes, of course- but we can't force people to do it. I am interested to hear how you would promote it and get people interested in doing it.

As for the adult dogs in pounds and shelters- many have already been well and truly desensitised to voice and a flat collar and lead. Does that mean they should fail an assessment? Even though i can put a piece of equipment on them and get great results?

Just because trainers have tool boxes, doesn't mean they ignore everything else relating to the dog. It allows trainers and more importantly owners to implement training more easily. I am yet to understand how that can be a bad thing.

Good post Cosmolo. The only way we could move to changing what people do both before they get a dog and soon after is to legislate it. But thats never going to happen unless you can control the sources that people get their dogs from and police it.

[Lou Castle]

"They TRAINED then conditioned the required behaviour and MANY responses over the course of many weeks."

If you have time, could you reply to the above sentence? Since my last post on this thread, I realised I left out TRAINED and MANY.

I have the time but I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by the sentence you want me to reply to. If you'd expand this a bit, I'd be happy to respond.

[Lou Castle]

My personal thoughts are that we do put to much emphasis on dog training tools rather than gaining knowledge on how to understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place

Until someone invents a device that lets us talk to dogs in a language that we both understand, any attempt to "understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place" is just a guess. It may be an "educated guess," but it's still just a guess. Anyone who tells you any different is not being honest.

Most of the clikers, haltis etc have only been introduced over the last 15 years, e collars have been around longer but not so widely used as in recent years.

Clickers are older than Ecollar, having been invented about 50 years ago. Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's, only about 40 years ago.

Have they really made any differance to dog behaviour over this time? Is there less dogs in pounds because these tool are now available?

Yes! To both questions.

A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available.

There will always bee the "newer is better" thinking among some people, It's human nature. It's not always right, but it's there for some folks.

I genuinely believe we need more trainers out there with knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than carrying a tool box with varied items in it thinking that is the soloution to a dogs problem.

Just having the tools doesn't mean that people are capable of applying them.

I have asked these questions because I have a genuine interest in finding out if all these tools avaiable today really make any differance to the problems people have with dog behaviour overall.

I think so. I know quite a few dogs whose lives have been saved by the Ecollar.

[Cosmolo]

Like Lou, i can give examples of situations where i believe a dogs life has been saved by various types of equipment and training. Pinnacle do you think that every dog should be able to be trained with a flat collar and lead? Can every owner train with a flat collar and lead?

Just on the preventative education as well- promotion of this is made more difficult because pet stores selling puppies do not want to promote education that may stop someone from buying a pup from their store! I didn't receive a single reply from any information given and sent to over 25 different pet shops in the metro area.

[Cosmolo]

Pinnacle, i am interested in your thoughts regarding preventative education- and anyone else for that matter. If there is a way we can do it, i'm all for it. But i'm out of promotional ideas at the moment!

[Sarah L]

Pinnacle- in the 2 years that we have been promoting "pre puppy classes"- specifically targetted toward people before they get a dog or puppy- we have had 2 enquiries and NO bookings. Every other service, including When Freddy Meets Fido (for pregnant people with dogs) does extremely well but trying to convince people to educate themselves ahead of time is not as easy as it seems. Would it help? Yes, of course- but we can't force people to do it. I am interested to hear how you would promote it and get people interested in doing it.

As for the adult dogs in pounds and shelters- many have already been well and truly desensitised to voice and a flat collar and lead. Does that mean they should fail an assessment? Even though i can put a piece of equipment on them and get great results?

Just because trainers have tool boxes, doesn't mean they ignore everything else relating to the dog. It allows trainers and more importantly owners to implement training more easily. I am yet to understand how that can be a bad thing.

Cosmolo, were you trying to charge for this service of "pre puppy school classes", It is hard enough to get people to pay for training when they have a dog as it is. I also would not promote it as pre puppy school.

What do you think of promoting it as "Know your dog before you get it" classes or "Learn about dogs before you get one" for want at the moment of better headings. I would also promote it as a community service so getting in touch with councils, vets and other trainers to formalise the class contents. I for one would be very happy to give up a couple of hours per week of my time for free to teach in the class, I can't speak for other trainers though.

Dogs in pounds that have been truly desensitised to voice and a flat collar is the tip of the ice berg in a training assesment. Other things needed is approching the dog, touching the dog in sensative ares of it's body, noise reaction and other dog reaction to name but a few. I had the greatest of pleasure in catching up with Battersea Dogs Home crew when they came here a few years ago. An ex cournal from the Brittish Army had taken over the running of Battersea and boy! what a differance he made to the place he took it from a shabby old run down pound under a railway viaducted which was noisy and bark and damp and a misserable place for dogs to end up in and worked his ass off, often for free to make it a place that I now think is a excelent roll model for how pounds should be. Take a look at the web site www.batterseadogshome.com.uk.

Trainers carrying tool boxes and ignoring everything else was not what I said. Maybe I did not explain myself properly. My origional question was do you think to much emphasis is put on the use of training tools. I also did not say they were a bad thing. What I wanted to establish was are training tool introduced to quickly before other simple methods would work just as well if done properly.

[Sarah L]

P: K9 I do want people to let their dogs play with other dogs, however I think you are either reading more into what I wrote and think that I advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets.

K9: I dont think I suggested that you said you advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets... But I cant see how it is any better playing with one dog or any dog? Other than the risk of being attacked is reduced...

You still have a high value reward that you need to call your dog away from...

P: Or I did not explain it in idiot proof form

K9: no need for defence...

P: As I said the first thing I teach a pup is to sit and focus then to meet and greet in calm behaviour. Then when I have taught a solid recall and make it more fun for the pup to return to me under any distraction I would let if off lead to play with a dog it meets.

K9: how exactly do you manage to make yourself more fun, when you are the one expecting the pup to sit calmly, & the other just plays with no rules...?

P: A recall is very acheivable under these circumstances. So you see K9 there is no need to inflict all sorts of retraint/correction on something that has been trained properly in the first place.

K9: Well thanks for the lesson in dog training, I will have to keep all that in mind...

I wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall, with any method... To suggest this will happen this easy is blue sky stuff..

P: May I ask how you would socialise a pup to other dogs?

K9: sure, read away... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=neutralisation

I don't profess to train dogs over an internet forum, using the lure reward method proparly and not just stuffing food into a dog will work extremly well in achieving a very reliable recall especially from a pup, under any distraction, which your origional question to me was how do I socialise a pup with other dogs. If it is as you say that you wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall with any method, does that mean your saying the tools methods don't work or just that if its not your way it won't work?

[Cosmolo]

Pinnacle, we had miniscule fees attached but we don't list prices in our promotional tools ( as it will vary with time, travel etc) and still had next to no enquiries. When i worked for RSPCA in Perth, they tried to run a free info night and it was cancelled due to lack of interest. We have contacted 8 Melbourne councils regarding offering assistance in various ways and received a reply from ONLY one, saying they will keep our details on file. Impossible to even get a park or oval for group classes through a council!

Re: the assessments, i wasn't suggesting thats where an assessment stops, but if while assessing a dog i know the dog is insensitive to a flat collar and voice, then discover other problems (dog to dog reactivity/ excitability, pulling on lead etc) i'm not going to start with a flat collar. Especially given that many of these dogs in shelters (or homes for that matter) don't have the luxury of time. Give me a lead and a flat collar and complete and utter control over the dogs environment and i can train it- but its not practical in most situations and just because i can do it doesn't mean that the next handler/ owner can do it.

Re: simple methods working if done properly. The methods i use are simple- i just use tools to help the dog and owner get the results they need as soon as is safe and possible. By the time i see a dog, its often at a point where a behaviour needs to stop- yesterday. As a trainer, i need to be able to look at the dog and owner as a combination and assess what will be the most effective tool and technique for them- so that we don't have to go through trial and error.

[Sarah L]

My personal thoughts are that we do put to much emphasis on dog training tools rather than gaining knowledge on how to understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place

Until someone invents a device that lets us talk to dogs in a language that we both understand, any attempt to "understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place" is just a guess. It may be an "educated guess," but it's still just a guess. Anyone who tells you any different is not being honest.

Most of the clikers, haltis etc have only been introduced over the last 15 years, e collars have been around longer but not so widely used as in recent years.

Clickers are older than Ecollar, having been invented about 50 years ago. Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's, only about 40 years ago.

Have they really made any differance to dog behaviour over this time? Is there less dogs in pounds because these tool are now available?

Yes! To both questions.

A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available.

There will always bee the "newer is better" thinking among some people, It's human nature. It's not always right, but it's there for some folks.

I genuinely believe we need more trainers out there with knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than carrying a tool box with varied items in it thinking that is the soloution to a dogs problem.

Just having the tools doesn't mean that people are capable of applying them.

I have asked these questions because I have a genuine interest in finding out if all these tools avaiable today really make any differance to the problems people have with dog behaviour overall.

I think so. I know quite a few dogs whose lives have been saved by the Ecollar.

Lou, many people can work out the reason for a dogs problem in the first place, take a dog that has been beaten throughout its life and then raise your hand and it shy's away are you saying we are only guessing it's has been because it was beaten. I know carrying tools does not mean that everyone is capable of applying them that is why I asked my origional question do we put to much emphasis on training tools.

Lou if clickers are older than e collars why were you saying I posted reviews on e collars that were 50 years old if e collars have only been around for 40 years. Can you give a case of a clicker being used 50 years ago.

[Cosmolo]

Pinnacle, i think what Lou might mean is that there are many cases where the dogs history is unknown or the owner is not aware of an incident that may have occurred or the influence it had on the dog. For instance, the dog might have been bullied at the park but the owner may not have seen it that way and they therefore don't mention it to you.

I deal wih alot of shelter dogs with no history. A diagnosis is one thing, identifying the reason for the behaviour in some situations will always be an educated guess. Not to mention that some behaviours start for one reason and continue for another, so identifying the initial reason is not always of assistance in resolving the problem.

ETA I also know of a dog who was raised and trained by a positive trainer who was NEVER physically corrected, hit etc. He was with his owner all the time so no one else had either. This dog would cower when a hand was raised but had never been abused in his life.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Cosmolo

[sidoney]

I think the approach of Dr House in the TV show is pretty good: "People lie. Work with what you see." (Or words to that effect.)

That's not to discount the value of an accurate historical account, if one is available.

[Rom]

Pinnacle, i am interested in your thoughts regarding preventative education- and anyone else for that matter. If there is a way we can do it, i'm all for it. But i'm out of promotional ideas at the moment!

I had a thought on this that might be helpful....might not too, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there

If their is one group of people that are deadly serious about doing the utmost that puppies get the best start in life its the ethical registered ped breeders. Many of these will send out info that goes with the puppy, or will try to educate the prospective owners themselves and sort the wheat from the chaff during an interview process. These breeders may like the service that you are offering and if a potential puppy canditate can show proof of attendance, it may save some of the work that breeders do. Perhaps the breeders would like to refer a potential puppy buyer to you....or maybe even make it a condition of getting a pup from them?

Could be something to ask in the Breeders thread?

[sidoney]

As a breeder (occasional), I would welcome someone to refer buyers to. I think that's a good suggestion and one that responsible breeders are likely to take up. It would be possible to approach breed clubs as a first point of contact.

I supply my buyers with the usual stuff and also fairly extensive puppy guide that includes a section on behaviour and training, because I know it's important - it's not as good as face to face training though. The majority of my puppy buyers do end up going to puppy classes, at least - I make it very clear to them that I expect the puppy to have training as it grows up. Enough to make it pleasant to be around, if no more - the basic behaviours that pet dogs should have.

Edited September 13, 2007 by sidoney

[Rom]

It wouldn't have to be limited to local breeders either....breeders from all over might get enquiries about pups from your neck of the woods.

If I was breeding and I was considering sending a pup to Melb, I'd be grateful for such a service considering that I might not get the chance to meet the people face to face or do home or yard checks.....

ETA: It might also give breeders some confidence in that a puppy farmer or BYB'er probably would not take part in the classes? Another way to help them select the best possible homing for their pups.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Rom