Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Lou Castle]

My origional question was do you think to much emphasis is put on the use of training tools. I also did not say they were a bad thing. What I wanted to establish was are training tool introduced to quickly before other simple methods would work just as well if done properly.

I define anything used in dog training as "tools." That includes your voice, your touch, flat collars, leashes, long lines, pinch collars, Ecollars and anything else that you can think of. It's impossible to train a dog without using tools.

Perhaps your definition of "tools" is different?

[Lou Castle]

Lou, many people can work out the reason for a dogs problem in the first place, take a dog that has been beaten throughout its life and then raise your hand and it shy's away are you saying we are only guessing it's has been because it was beaten.

Unless you know the dog's history, any kind of a guess as to what has happened to him is, as I've said a guess. Just because a dog is handshy does NOT mean that he was beaten. He could have run into his owner's hand at top speed and hurt himself. Now he's making the association because of the pain he got, not because of any beating.

People who pretend to know what has happened to a dog based only on what they see now are guessing.

Lou if clickers are older than e collars why were you saying I posted reviews on e collars that were 50 years old if e collars have only been around for 40 years.

You need to learn to read critically. And that goes for what I've posted and what you've posted as well. First, what you posted was not a "review of Ecollars." It was, as the title quite clearly said, "Electronic Training Devices: A Review of Current Literature."

The 50-year-old study that I referred to was NOT on Ecollars, because they didn't exist. It was on the effect of electric shock on dogs and that's been going on almost since electricity was first discovered.

Can you give a case of a clicker being used 50 years ago.

How's this?

Meanwhile, clicker training was being used by Keller Breland with other species. In the 1950's Marineland hired him to develop a training program for their marine mammals. In a matter of weeks, Keller devised the system of marine mammal training that is still in use today. The Brelands worked with many trainers and associates who worked in a variety of locations, including Sea Life Park, which was then owned by Karen Pryor and her husband.

http://www.alldogsgym.com/training/clicker-history.asp

Shouldn't you know this stuff?

[MolassesLass]

I'm not sure if I should have started another thread but this one seemed appropriate....

I need some help with a fear aggressive puppy (or one that's simply under socialised). The runt of my May litter Hudson has gone to brand new dog owners. Other than puppy preschool (at which they are now "in trouble" for his behaviour) and a few trips to the park (which they stopped due to aggression towards Hudson), Hudson hasn't met any other dogs since leaving me at 10 weeks old. I expected (and warned them) that he may have some issues due to being the runt of his litter but it's way more than that. He's a 4 month old desexed male BC.

I am loathe to have them around because the two pups I kept will just want to dominate him and I think he's in need of godo experiences with lots of new dogs not ones he already knows and is familiar with. But they don't know anyone else who owns dogs.

What's going to be the best way to approach this issue?

Edit: Tried to make more sense

Edited September 18, 2007 by molasseslass

[MonElite]

ML - Id tell them to take the dog to the ob club, aproach the instructors and explain the issue. Hopefully at the club there are some freindly non reactive dogs for the pupp to socialise with under an experienced eye of instructors. preferably out of class.

On that note - my biggest problem was and is finding suitable partner to train with.

Good luck.

[MolassesLass]

They don't go to an obedience club, they have been attending an RSPCA run puppy preschool (called "K9 Kindergarten") and I am not convinced of the instructors skills. I don't have any club I can recommend them to and besides this is a puppy I bred, I need to fix the issue.

After the deafining silence this morning I have bought them some Pat McConnell books. See if that helps.

[Erny]

... and besides this is a puppy I bred, I need to fix the issue.

Molasseslass ..... I commend you that you have a sense of responsibility as the dog's breeder, but IMO that responsibility does not rest 100% in your hands. Training of any dog - issues or no - rests with the owner of the dog and as training will help the dog in more ways than one, I think the owners would do well to take on some training lessons. Those lessons should cover not only obedience but also explanation and demonstration of the principals of socialisation.

If the dog doesn't receive regular exposure to the stimuli the pup finds disconcerting, how is ANYONE supposed to be able to help fix it? And was it your doing that the pup (by the sounds of it - don't have a very clear picture of what occurred at puppy pre-school) didn't have much or very good exposure at puppy pre-school, or that the pup's owners perhaps didn't receive the right advice?

You ask "what is the best way to approach this issue?". My advice would be for the pup's owners to either engage a trainer/behaviourist for some private lessons (in both obedience and socialisation exercises) or join a reputable dog school comprising of instructors who have knowledge in how to work to improve on the pup's behaviour, taking into consideration lack of early socialisation during its critical period.

At LEAST the latter, although they may find having some private tuition under their belt before attending school, beneficial.

ETA: Did the pup receive much experience in the sense of general socialisation before it left you?

Edited September 19, 2007 by Erny

[MolassesLass]

Molasseslass ..... I commend you that you have a sense of responsibility as the dog's breeder, but IMO that responsibility does not rest 100% in your hands. Training of any dog - issues or no - rests with the owner of the dog and as training will help the dog in more ways than one, I think the owners would do well to take on some training lessons. Those lessons should cover not only obedience but also explanation and demonstration of the principals of socialisation.

Yeah, I just meant that I want to be directly involved until this issue is fixed. I don't wanna just say "A private trainer will fix it. Good luck."

If the dog doesn't receive regular exposure to the stimuli the pup finds disconcerting, how is ANYONE supposed to be able to help fix it? And was it your doing that the pup (by the sounds of it - don't have a very clear picture of what occurred at puppy pre-school) didn't have much or very good exposure at puppy pre-school, or that the pup's owners perhaps didn't receive the right advice?

The pup is still attending the 6 week puppy course but the instuctor believes Hudson is so bad that they've taken to letting all the other puppies off lead to socialise and keeping Hudson on lead in the corner. The class consists of 6 pups, with Hudson being one of the older and larger ones. They stopped going to dog parks because they encountered too many morons with untrained dogs that were giving Hudson actual reason to be fearful of other dogs. The only person they know with a dog is me.

You ask "what is the best way to approach this issue?". My advice would be for the pup's owners to either engage a trainer/behaviourist for some private lessons (in both obedience and socialisation exercises) or join a reputable dog school comprising of instructors who have knowledge in how to work to improve on the pup's behaviour, taking into consideration lack of early socialisation during its critical period.

At LEAST the latter, although they may find having some private tuition under their belt before attending school, beneficial.

Maybe it's just me but I've always found private trainers to be really expensive and as such only used for really bad problems. Do you think fear aggression (only exhibited with dogs) at this age is that bad a problem?

I don't know any trainers I could recommend.

ETA: Did the pup receive much experience in the sense of general socialisation before it left you?

No socialisation with dogs outside my pack.

I'm trying to find someone that lives close to them that could go with them to dog parks in the afternoons for socialisation. Hopefully someone a bit in the know will not only be able to make sure they are doing introductions etc. right but to also pick the safer dogs to meet.

[Erny]

Maybe it's just me but I've always found private trainers to be really expensive and as such only used for really bad problems. Do you think fear aggression (only exhibited with dogs) at this age is that bad a problem?

The cost of a behaviourist visit is, generally speaking, around about the same cost as one might pay to pts a dog. ANY aggression is "that bad a problem" and not dealt with has the fullest potential to escalate to a seriousness that maybe one day will see the dog as unrehabilitable. Get in now, is what I say. The earlier the easier the better.

I don't know any trainers I could recommend.

Email me at [email protected]

I'll send you the email address of one that K9 Force has mentioned.

ETA: Did the pup receive much experience in the sense of general socialisation before it left you?

No socialisation with dogs outside my pack.

I'm trying to find someone that lives close to them that could go with them to dog parks in the afternoons for socialisation. Hopefully someone a bit in the know will not only be able to make sure they are doing introductions etc. right but to also pick the safer dogs to meet.

This is leaving the door wide open to grievous errors. Uncontrolled environment for starters. "Hoping" to stumble across someone who might know something about something, for seconds.

Behaviour consultation and Dog School with reputable instructors is the way to go IMO. If the place where your puppy owner now goes is ONLY suggesting keep pup on lead and away, then my opinion of their capabilities is low. I'd shift and go elsewhere.

Why not start a new thread asking for DOLers to put up recommendations for dog schools (ones that can assist with behaviour issues such as is now developing) in your pup's owner's area?

[MolassesLass]

Erny, did you get my email I sent? I'd still love to know of a good private trainer for future use.

I met with the owners and Hudson at a dog park Monday afternoon and discovered that the problem was highly over-stated to them.

Hudson does get way over-excited when he's on lead and there are other dogs running around. So he barks and growls and pulls towards them but it's excitement/frustration NOT aggression. This one is a leadership issue (I think) and will also ease as he grows up a bit. So they are working each afternoon on gradually sitting closer to the park fenced area while rewarding calm behaviour.

He's also not aggressive with other dogs but overly reactive IMO. If a dog growls at him then he over-reacts to "protect" himself but in the whole hour we were meeting and greeting at the park he didn't once show any aggression meeting dogs that were friendly. The one (actually it was 3 Iggys or Whippets with one owner) that growled at him, caused Hudson to jump back and raise hackles but he didn't bark or growl and then he was whisked out of the situation. For this one, we are meeting twice a week at parks for doggy meetings and getting them to a good obedience club (they have agreed to drive to one I trust).

Once I assured them that Hudson wouldn't die of cruelty if they used verbal corrections, they realised the problem is not insumountable at all.

Good news is, Hudson graduated K9 Kindy last night and was noted to have a "marked improvement in behaviour overall but especially with other dogs" - I believe they didn't inform the numbnut instructor that it was due to giving up using their methods that allowed this.

[Erny]

No Molasses - I didn't receive your email. But I've just PM'd you with the info. Don't think the hyperlinks will work as they might have with a direct email, so you might need to manually type them in ..... but I figure that's not too much of a big deal .

Glad it seems to you that things aren't as bad as seems. Be aware of the instances where this dog is uncertain/fearful and have the owners fully aware of THEIR job to stand in to PREVENT the dog from needing to be afraid.

[moon]

Was just reading the anxiety and genetics thread with much interest as I have a anxious, fearful, stranger aggressive dog.

I have noticed this type of problem has been posted on occasion with some good advice and recommendations to seek a professional trainer.

I was just wondering if anyone has what they would call a success story in treating these types of problems.

Hi Bosco, I have a fear aggressive GSD as well & currently finding some methods to rehabilitate him. How is your dog doing, is he still aggressive?

[harper]

Was just reading the anxiety and genetics thread with much interest as I have a anxious, fearful, stranger aggressive dog.

I have noticed this type of problem has been posted on occasion with some good advice and recommendations to seek a professional trainer.

I was just wondering if anyone has what they would call a success story in treating these types of problems.

Hi Bosco, I have a fear aggressive GSD as well & currently finding some methods to rehabilitate him. How is your dog doing, is he still aggressive?

Hi moon,

I found dol because of the endless hours at night searching the internet looking for answers to mine and my dogs problem. First thing I have learnt is that a recommended, reputable trainer/behaviourist is the only way to go. I didnt have a good experience with the first trainer...expensive and not very helpful and that put me off a bit from trying another one. But then I decided to contact erny and havnt looked back.

Things are on the up and up for me and my dog and all and sundrie have been commenting on his improvement. That isnt to say that we dont still have our little setbacks but they are usually due to me either sinking back into getting flustered and not handling the situation according to our 'program' or becoming a little over enthused and pushing things but because erny likes to be kept up to date that means I get to debrief and pinpoint areas that need work as we go along.

Initially it all seems so daunting and there have been a couple of periods where I have slacked off a bit with the program but have pretty much seen immediate results for the worst so I kept working at it and after a while it starts to become second nature. I feel like we are reaching some little milestones with my boy and it just makes me all the more exited to get to the next one.

This has and continues to be a huge learning curve for me and my dog and I have gained so much more confidence as a dog handler. We just reached our initial goal of doing a stand for examination and put up a level at obedience.

So, Moon, there is hope. I look at the whole process as on going management and improvement and that goes for me just as much as the dog. By the sounds of it you are in NSW so if that is the case I would definately follow other peoples advice and get in touch with steve from k9force.

Best wishes for you and your dog. Would be great to hear how you go.

[Erny]

This has and continues to be a huge learning curve for me and my dog and I have gained so much more confidence as a dog handler. We just reached our initial goal of doing a stand for examination and put up a level at obedience.

Bosko - that's a great outcome in a relatively short period of time. This is all your hard work paying off and you deserve the progress and success you've achieved.

Well done!

Cheers!

Erny

Edited October 28, 2007 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Hey Bosko

Fantastic work and I commend you on your commitment and hard word in achieving the stand for exam as wel as moving up to the next level.

;) Congratulations on the wonderful achiement. It's a nice feeling when you see all your hard work pay off.

[InspectorRex]

Keep up the great work Bosko , Rome was not built in a day!

It all takes time , effort and patience .