Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Lou Castle]

All the professionals mentioned, E collars are wonderful tools. The problem is they are too easy to use incorrectly.

I don't know of a tool that isn't easy to use incorrectly. People think that treats are a benign way to train that that nothing bad can happen with them. But I've seen many fat dogs who have been trained with treats. Often those owners have not adjusted the dog's regular feedings to cut back on the food because the dog is getting part of his nutrition during the training. A fat dog is worse off than a fat human. Dogs lay down their fat in between their internal organs and that means that their hearts and lungs don't have the room they need to work properly. That causes lifelong damage and will probably shorten the dog's life.

People think that clickers can't be misused. I saw a frustrated clicker trainer throw her clicker at her dog's head because he wasn't "getting it." It was only by luck that he wasn't hit in the eye.

The bottom line is that any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiot proof to the right idiot.

One should not avoid a tool because "it's easy to misuse," they all are. One good thing about the Ecollar, is that it can't cause any physical damage, even if it is misused.

[Lablover]

Come on Lou, you can do better than that.

"They TRAINED then conditioned the required behaviour and MANY responses over the course of many weeks."

If you have time, could you reply to the above sentence? Since my last post on this thread, I realised I left out TRAINED and MANY.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Lablover

[Staranais]

I don't know of a tool that isn't easy to use incorrectly. People think that treats are a benign way to train that that nothing bad can happen with them. But I've seen many fat dogs who have been trained with treats. Often those owners have not adjusted the dog's regular feedings to cut back on the food because the dog is getting part of his nutrition during the training. A fat dog is worse off than a fat human. Dogs lay down their fat in between their internal organs and that means that their hearts and lungs don't have the room they need to work properly. That causes lifelong damage and will probably shorten the dog's life.

People think that clickers can't be misused. I saw a frustrated clicker trainer throw her clicker at her dog's head because he wasn't "getting it." It was only by luck that he wasn't hit in the eye.

I don't know if those are very good examples, since the first IMO requires the handler to be abnormally stupid, the second requires the handler to be both abusive and stupid.

So I'd like to share a story about a clicker being misused, to the detriment of the dog, by reasonably smart and well intentioned people.

When I got my current dog, he was incredibly predatory, dog aggressive and disobedient, and I had no idea how to handle him. The local obedience class told me to click him when he was being good, and ignore him when he was aggressive. By following that advice, his aggressive outbursts at other dogs increased in frequency and intensity. When I pointed this out to the trainer, I was told to keep clicking, and he would eventually get less aggressive. If I hadn't gotten rather attached to my dog and felt a personal responsibility to him, I could easily have given up on him when the "training" didn't help with his scary and embarrassing behaviour problems.

It's not just me. Most young dogs that get euthanised by vets are killed becase they exhibit annoying or frustrating behaviour problems, not because they are suffering from health problems. Many people just want a well behaved dog, they're not interested in years of training, and they have little patience with an aggressive or disobedient dog. A dog that misses out on learning how to behave correctly because the owner used a clicker inappropriately or incorrectly, can quite literally be killed by that incorrect clicker training.

Please understand that I have nothing against clicker training. I like my clicker and use it all the time. I don't hesitate to recommend clicker training to other dog owners since I think it is a tool that is unlikely to hurt a dog (IMO giving a novice dog owner a clicker is less risky for the dog than sticking a check chain or ecollar in the hands of a complete novice). But just wanted to post this story to point out that, although IMO it is difficult to hurt a dog with a clicker, it definately is possible. No training tool is completely benign.

[Rom]

Great post Am.

Different tools have their different strengths and weaknesses.

Failure to consider the use of a tool because of the potentiality of misuse would be kind of like a mechanic who says "I never use screw drivers because they are useless at undoing bolts and I know a bloke that spent hours trying to get a bolt undone with a screw driver and he ended up damaging the bolt"

I think that trainers sometimes develop a preference for a tool or method, and then try to apply that tool or method to every single situation. This is like the another mechanic developing a preferance for screw drivers so he doesn't carry any other tool in his tool box.

Both mechanics are going to come across things that they won't be able to fix. Even if they do fix some things, the results will not be as good as if they had used the right tool for the right job. But they may fool themselves into believing that they can fix everything with their limited tool box and therefore they may not see that there could be a better way.

On the other hand some tools in a mechanics tool box need a greater degree of expertise in order to get the best use out of them....doesn't mean that the backyard mechanic can't get his hands on them and do a botchy job on someones car.

Having said that, I don't believe that the e-collar should be freely available...I think that it should only be available through and under the guidance of professionals. But I also feel the same should be true with prong collars, check chains and haltis.

The problem, as I see it, is that if somebody comes from a background of using a high degree of force/compulsion/punishment and they purchase a tool where that is really not necessary without training and guidance they still try to use that tool based on their own methods and belief systems. That is the real issue...not the tool.

What can I add? Probably nothing - my first experience with check chains was watching retriever training in the US on my initial trip, where everyone uses the device. At least the professional trainers I observed.

They conditioned the required behaviour and responses over the course of many weeks.

The dogs were not fools. As a result the dogs had to be forced to go also (a force fetch program), as it was considered safer by the handlers/trainers side.

Lucky the dogs learnt to handle pressure (corrections and sometimes punishment) well, all for their main reward, a retrieve. God bless high drive dogs with sound nerves.

All the professionals mentioned, check chains are wonderful tools. The problem is they are too easy to use incorrectly.

The words in bold above have been changed by me...not to pick on you LL nor deride your experience which I have developed some respect for....mainly to show where I'm coming from.

Your quote could still ring true with my changes.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Rom

[Sarah L]

Does anyone think that we place to much emphasis on training tools used for dog training? I am going to try and carefully word this so as not to leave any misunderstanding. So I hope all this makes sence.

My personal thoughts are that we do put to much emphasis on dog training tools rather than gaining knowledge on how to understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place, also then knowing how to fix the dogs problem through knowledge, not just grabbing a varied amount of tools and thinking that will fix the problem. Most of the clikers, haltis etc have only been introduced over the last 15 years, e collars have been around longer but not so widely used as in recent years. Have they really made any differance to dog behaviour over this time? Is there less dogs in pounds because these tool are now available?

A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available.

Mechanics need tools because cars are made up of differant objects requiring to be replaced after a certain amount of use. Dogs do not have such parts needing replaced.

I genuinely believe we need more trainers out there with knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than carrying a tool box with varied items in it thinking that is the soloution to a dogs problem.

I have asked these questions because I have a genuine interest in finding out if all these tools avaiable today really make any differance to the problems people have with dog behaviour overall.

[Steve K9Pro]

Does anyone think that we place to much emphasis on training tools used for dog training? I am going to try and carefully word this so as not to leave any misunderstanding. So I hope all this makes sence.

My personal thoughts are that we do put to much emphasis on dog training tools rather than gaining knowledge on how to understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place, also then knowing how to fix the dogs problem through knowledge, not just grabbing a varied amount of tools and thinking that will fix the problem. Most of the clikers, haltis etc have only been introduced over the last 15 years, e collars have been around longer but not so widely used as in recent years. Have they really made any differance to dog behaviour over this time? Is there less dogs in pounds because these tool are now available?

A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available.

Mechanics need tools because cars are made up of differant objects requiring to be replaced after a certain amount of use. Dogs do not have such parts needing replaced.

I genuinely believe we need more trainers out there with knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than carrying a tool box with varied items in it thinking that is the soloution to a dogs problem.

I have asked these questions because I have a genuine interest in finding out if all these tools avaiable today really make any differance to the problems people have with dog behaviour overall.

K9: Most times, I can easily handle peoples dogs with very little else than my body language & some type of restraint, yes even a flat collar.

But is it really about what I can can do?, or what the client (dog owner) in front of me will be able to do once they get he dog home again?

I have people daily tell me that their last trainer could handle the dog & when they couldnt, just told them it was their fault.

I sell results, if that means I need to equip people with knowledge AND a prong collar or e collar, then I think that is the best solution...

No dogs havent improved over the years, but I attribute that to less available time rather than what impact a tool will or wont have...

[Kavik]

Sometimes the tools make a world of difference as to the control the owner has, and as to how in control the owner feels, which is often more important!

Especially with large, strong dogs that have been allowed to be out of control since a pup, an owner may feel overwhelmed by their strength and not actually be able to control them on a flat collar. A different training/correction/restraint tool which gives them more control and allows them to then train the dog to be better behaved will go a long way in helping their relationship.

[Erny]

A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with

Also not forgetting that "these days" a dog is walked out on a lead and collar far more than ever was required before the current laws and when the majority of dogs were loose for much of the time. So walking on a loose lead is more of an issue/requirement than it ever was.

... and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available.

Like the head collar?

Generally speaking in relation to the average layperson, I think this is a typical trait of evolution in the "gadget" world. Forever hopeful that some other 'thing' will do the work and fix the problems for us. Different tools for different dogs for different owners for different reasons and selecting the right tool to fit the 'bill' for all of these often makes the job at hand easier. It still and will always remain what one DOES with the tool determines its success or not.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Erny

[Sarah L]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

There must still be enough available time to train dogs today if so many tools are being recommended in order to give a person confidence to handle a dog. Is there a better way to give an owner confidence and would this be through teaching knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than teaching knowledge and understanding of a tool?

[Kavik]

Certainly owner education would go a long way People choose the breed they do for a variety of reasons, and not all of them get enough control over especially a large dog.

The right tool can reduce the amount of time needed to get control by a large amount. And in some cases, quickly regaining control is very important, sometimes the dog's life depends on it (and the owner's sanity!). An understanding of training and dog behaviour is necessary to have in conjunction with the correct tool - dogs can learn to pull on any type of collar/headcollar - so you still need proper technique.

[Steve K9Pro]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

K9: yes, well, thats how they do it in the perfect world isnt it?

I have a question for you if I may?

If you get a puppy, how do you socialise it to other dogs?

Edited September 11, 2007 by K9 Force

[Erny]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup?

Certainly owner education would go a long way People choose the breed they do for a variety of reasons, and not all of them get enough control over especially a large dog.

I think Kavik's statement answers your question, Pinnacle. It is often that people are not thinking ahead in time and worry about the problem only once it reaches the stage of frustration. This is normal in that how can you recognise a potential problem when you don't know what you're looking for? So education is the key IMO.

Of course it's not all about that - some issues develop due to uncontrollable outside influence. Others because of genetic factors preculiar to the breed or even to the individual within the breed. Etc. Etc. But if dog owners in general could and would access information towards education (including coaching - reading and interpreting what one reads can quite often not be enough) in the very early days (or before) dog ownership, then its possible that numerous dogs would not exhibit the common problems for which they seek the different training tools in the first place.

I'm generalising of course. Even with education, training tools for various purposes and specialities would still be beneficial and required, but perhaps not quite as prevalantly as they are now.

ETA : And is it possible that some of the "specialty" (my word - perhaps not the correct one) training tools are now being sought more now than before because there are more trainers with knowledge and understanding of dogs & training tools than there have been in the past?

And something further to consider - ARE the various training tools being sought after more now than before? Or is this simply an assumption because due to things such as the internet discussions pertaining to them are now more readily accessible?

So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place.

Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

There's nothing wrong with training ..... even though your words "inflicting training" make it sound a negative thing (unintended?). And even the various training tools that are available can be a more mild aversive than the "plain old collar and lead" which of course in themselves are restraint items.

And they possibly could have handled/trained the dog properly in the first place but perhaps didn't know how (which is where "education" comes in again) or perhaps the handling problems developed due to outside influences that were beyond their control.

And what is the "proper dog"? If a person cannot hold a 70kg dog that has been unexpectedly triggered into drive by a (eg) cat/possum or other prey animal by way of a flat collar and lead ............ are you saying this is the wrong dog for them? Or could it be that in all other respects the dog is the right dog for them but that they simply need a little extra help with being able to show the dog where its best advantage lies?

Is there a better way to give an owner confidence and would this be through teaching knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than teaching knowledge and understanding of a tool?

IMO these two (highlighted) things are inseparable.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

Thanks for your thoughts Pinnacle, got me thinking.

I started to answer, but realised that my answer would depend on what your definition of a training tool is.

If one dog can train another through body language, is body language a training tool? Can body language be misused in an abusive fashion? I think it can. But then, that would also be dependant on your definition of abuse.

Another thing to consider I guess is that there is the 5 minute education (where we are talking about educating dog owners) and there is the 20+ year education that some of the members here have. No matter what issues some people are having with their dogs, they will only ever be interested in the 5 minute education because the dog isn't that high on their list of priorities.

ETA: Another thought....I see people who have absolutely no coordination...they can barely walk around without tripping over. I see people who are off with the fairies, they just cannot focus on the dog...they are chatting away and socialising. There is no question that they love their dogs, but their dogs are uncontrollable because their timing sucks. All the knowledge about dogs in the world isn't going to help some of these people. Sometimes the dogs issues stem from problems that are inherent to the nature of the owner that may not be able to be changed.

Its the diversity of characteristics between both dogs and their handlers that make a variety of tools necessary if we really want to improve things for dogs and their bond with their owners.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Rom

[Lablover]

Here is a good link for starters who may lurk.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vcs505/Spring%20...ineproblems.pdf

As per usual, I am too tired to type.

[Erny]

Have only glanced through .... interesting to note that under "Conflict Aggression" the notes seem to suggest "no check chain or prong - no punishment" but that they advocate use of Head Collar for control. So the strong pressure on nerve rich areas around the dog's muzzle (close to eyes) and back of head and leverage of head on neck is not recognised as a punishment?

[sidoney]

I do think that often more attention is given to the tool than to understanding the dog, and that it would be better if it was the other way around. That people are after the five minute fix.

However, I see this as a part of wider social phenomena. We as dog trainers would like to see people spend more time training their dog, at least to some minimum standard that sees the dog achieve some level of competence for living in a judgmental human society. However, we know that when compared to the number of dogs that are owned, proportionally very few end up being taken by their owners to any kind of training, whether puppy class, obedience class, private trainers, whatever.

This can not be surprising in a society where we see parents complaining that schools don't do enough to discipline their kids, and people associated with schools responding that it's not the school's place to teach discipline, but parents'. As to what the balance SHOULD be, I don't know. But I do know that if there are people who appear to leave discipline to schools, and presumably parents have a great deal invested in their children, how do we expect people who get a dog as an afterthought, something to go with the house and kids because that's what people do, to invest time and interest in their pet?

As to why people buy a particular type of dog. I would be surprised to find that the majority of people who don't want to spend time training their pet put much thought into purchasing it. There are all sorts of reasons why people buy things, and very few are rational, as advertisers well know. Humans are NOT rational beings. Not as much as we would like to think. Just look at the stock market as an example. Here is a place where billions of dollars are made and lost, but we find "panic sell offs" and other irrational behaviours there. Much of what we buy, we buy to enhance self image. Or else we don't put more than minimum thought into it and buy what worked before or worked for a friend or what others around are getting.

With people who do want the five minute fix, then perhaps it's best to give it to them, if the alternative is discarding the dog. The question becomes, what is the five minute fix that people will persist with, and which will do the least amount of harm for the greatest amount of desired effect?

[Sarah L]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

K9: yes, well, thats how they do it in the perfect world isnt it?

I don't think we need a perfect world to achieve this, just more trainers willing to set up (Before you get a dog class) for want of better words. I have been thinking of doing this latley, as I have been confined to bed recently with chronic bronchitis thinking is all I have been able to do. I would appreciate other trainers thoughts on this idea

I have a question for you if I may?

If you get a puppy, how do you socialise it to other dogs?

In relation to socialising a puppy with other dogs the first thing I teach the pup to do is sit and focus on me. The sit is a passive body language that other dogs can read. Often a pup pulling and gaging at the end of a lead to get to other dogs is not a good starting point. The sit and focus also gives me time to assess whether I will let the pup meet the dog in the first place. After this I ask the other dogs owner how friendly their dog is (bearing in mind you can't always trust what they say). So it helps a lot if you can read the other dogs body language. I also take into consideraton the size of the other dog, whether it is male/female ect.... I then let the other dog approach and let it sniff the pup and the pup to sniff the other dog. By this time the whole meet and greet has been done with calm behaviour from the pup. I then walk on with the pup and continue my walk. This I do from 16 weeks for a week or two until I have also taught a solid recall then after the meet and greet stage I can let the pup off lead to play with the other dog. Bearing in mind that 16 weeks is when you can walk your pup and it is protected with its vacinations. Before this age I would try and find other pups the same age to socialise the pup with but would still use the same way I have written above. This is also how I would teach a client to socialise a pup to other dogs under my guidance and teaching them about the other dogs body language.

Any novice dog owners out there who will read this it is not a good idea to take what I have written and go and try it for yourself, unless you can read another dogs body language well.

[Staranais]

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.

Why do people get puppies they can't train? IMO, lots of reasons.

Because they pick a dog breed based on appearance, or based on misleading advice from a petshop or unethical breeder, and don't research the probable temperament of the dog.

or because they have never owned a dog before, or never owned a "difficult" breed, so simply don't understand that most dogs actually do need ongoing training.

or because they get a mixed breed dog from a shelter or BYB, and end up with a larger or more fiesty dog than they expected.

In a perfect world, owner education could deal with the first problems perhaps, but not really the last ones. There will always be mixed breed pups that need adoption, and that end up being bigger or more energetic than the owner expects. And even purebred dogs sometimes end up with atypical temperament quirks that the owner or breeder didn't expect them to have. And accidents do happen. What if a person adopts a young large breed dog, and then suffers an accident or injury that made them less physically capable?

And please don't forget us people who adopt adult dogs, and either intentionally or unintentionally end up having to deal with behaviour problems that we didn't create. ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

PDTS: I don't think we need a perfect world to achieve this

K9: I dont think we do either, thats not what I said though... In reality, the majority of dog owners get the dog, wait until it starts behaving badly, then seek training...

Ideally (perfect world), they would seek advice before getting the dog, then begin training immediately... Pro active, not re active..

PDTS: I can let the pup off lead to play with the other dog. Bearing in mind that 16 weeks is when you can walk your pup and it is protected with its vacinations. Before this age I would try and find other pups the same age to socialise the pup with but would still use the same way I have written above. This is also how I would teach a client to socialise a pup to other dogs under my guidance and teaching them about the other dogs body language.

K9: Thanks for answering that, I have a few points I would like to make...

You say above you allow your pup & advise others to allow their pups to play with other dogs..

A reasonable assumption is that the dog would get to like to play with the other dogs, lets say it would find it rewarding.. the more it does it, the more rewarding, so, now that you have a dog with a high value on playing with other dogs, you recalling the dog from them will either be more difficult to train or if your dog will leave the other dogs, its removing the reward... right?

What prompts me to ask this question was this statement you made

PDTS: why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later.[/quote]

K9: So say we have Joe Average who gets a pup, follows your advice & allows it to play with other dogs, then has a dog that, being Joe Average, may need to "inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint" for something they DID train in the first place..

I dont see how this is any better at all.....

[Kavik]

K9

I would say that most people would like their dog to play with other dogs, so it is something they encourage. Everyone would like their dog to at least be civil with other dogs ;) . And a lot of dogs enjoy playing with other dogs, and we all like to see our dogs enjoying themselves Most people do not think of the consequences of this on their recall, or are not bothered by it.