Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Erny]

Whoooaaa ...... If you don't wish to discuss, then simply don't.

What would be great is for you to actually research this matter, establish the required open circuit voltage to get arcing on an e collar, ...

You can see that I've attempted to do just that ..... why the heck do you think I know of Stephen Lindsay's writings regarding voltage etc?

... and realise what an electrically silly thing you have proposed.

I have not "proposed" anything electrically. Just brought up what I've read and openly confessed to not properly understanding it. No need for your uncalled for, abrupt and bordering on rude reply.

No more from me, I normally charge for more advice!!

And remind me to let you know about trainers and how they normally "charge" for their services, at anytime should you make use of the advice given for free (and to most people, normally quite willingly and gladly .... because they like to help) by them here on DogzOnLine.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Erny

[MonElite]

poodlesplus - are you sure you are not the triplet of a lab + poodle and lab and poodle people?

you all seem to have a lot in comon, the older lab (with TDX from memory) and a younger black poodle?

Am I correct?

If you are one of the triplets, I think we have been down the road of this discussion in the past. I see nothing has changed and you havent progressed in your research....

but if Im wrong and seeing you are new here I suggest you use the search button on the forum to see many more threads on ecollars and their use, correct use, obuse and the colours the straps come in.

BTW

TEMS machines give a "shock" along a nerve path so that the percieved pain along that path is reduced. It is similar to biting your finger to reduce the percieved pain elsewhere. Of course you have complete controllability over the level of the applied shock

Its TENS. TENS = transcellular electrical nerve stimulation

Edited August 19, 2007 by myszka

[jesomil]

No more from me, I normally charge for more advice!!

Wow !!!........ on many accounts.

ETA

poodlesplus - are you sure you are not the triplet of a lab + poodle and lab and poodle people?

you all seem to have a lot in comon, the older lab (with TDX from memory) and a younger black poodle?

Am I correct?

If you are one of the triplets, I think we have been down the road of this discussion in the past. I see nothing has changed and you havent progressed in your research....

Very sneaky Myszka . There do seem to be alot of similarities and opinions though.

Edited August 19, 2007 by jesomil

[haven]

It's funny on so many levels

[MonElite]

To me the funniest is that the IEC has many thousands of electrical engineers and some seem to own very simmilar types/combos of dogs.

Just wondering............ do you people think that companies like dogtra or innotek employ/consult some electrical engineers when they design their gear? or simmilar - meaning someoen that knows what they are talking about when it comes to the closed circuits of low voltage stims?

or do they just wack few electrodes intot a plastic box, give a remote to go with it and voila we now have an ecollar?

[Erny]

To me the funniest is that the IEC has many thousands of electrical engineers and some seem to own very simmilar types/combos of dogs.

Just wondering............ do you people think that companies like dogtra or innotek employ/consult some electrical engineers when they design their gear?

One would think so.

... or do they just wack few electrodes intot a plastic box, give a remote to go with it and voila we now have an ecollar?

Although I do not believe as intentionally as crude as all that, we have evolved FROM the "shock-collar" which was far more extreme than what we now know, to the modern-day "e-collar" and this, like most/all else, is the result of the experience of use and observation and our never-ending quest for improvement.

PS Speaking of observations .... good pick-up Myszka. I seem to recall those earlier conversations you refer to, in another thread. Same reference to "TEMS" made there too, I think. So perhaps all the IEC engineers with the same dog breeds also all go to the same school of spelling?

Edited August 19, 2007 by Erny

[MonElite]

Same reference to "TEMS" made there too, I think. So perhaps all the IEC engineers with the same dog breeds also all go to the same school of spelling?

I think they were sitting in the front row in the classroom. I would just blame the teacher

[Sarah L]

Firstly I would like to say to you Lou castle that dragging up such an old thread under the guise of an e collar success story was a very lame way to try and promote yourself. There was nothing in your links about the behaviours of those 2 dogs that other trainers have successfully treated and cured without the use of an e collar.

poodlesplus I thought your post was very good on all counts. Everyone knows that even someone who thinks that they have taught the use of this tool properly cannot guarantee that it will be continued to be used properly by the average dog owner/layperson, and before we get into the old retort of any training tool can be used wrongly. I would just like to say that this is why a lot of trainers will not recommend tools that can be misused in the first place. I was speaking to a woman recently who attended a e collar training session with her dog. These are her words...... there were 8 or so people in the class and while the trainer had split the class in two and sent the first half off to practise while the other half were being shown what to do, there was one man in the class that just kept zapping his dog and the trainer did not see this because the trainer was dealing with the other half of the class. She told me she left the class and decided that this tool was not for her and that she did not want to use it.

Lastly I have one question for all people who do use e collars if low level stimulation does not work to correct the dogs behaviour what is your next step.

[Rom]

TEMS machines

Yup....that is most definitely

technically is correct

and

used correct language

ETA: :Tongue in cheek icon:

Edited August 19, 2007 by Rom

[MonElite]

Lastly I have one question for all people who do use e collars if low level stimulation does not work to correct the dogs behaviour what is your next step.

Well for starters most of the responsible people that use the ecollars dont use them as a correction tool, so there is no ignoring of the low stimulation as it isnt a CORRECTION. The dog is tought to avoid/escape the stimulation, and if it learns that its actions do that than it receives no stim at all.

And I would suggest that if a dog is ignoring a comand under some type of a distraction that means that the trainer is progressing to fast for the dog and the dog shouldnt be placed under that level of distraction as yet.

Of course ou could get trigger happy and apply higher stim, but the name of the game is to never hurt the dog with the stim.

[ILFC]

What kind of dogs/personality or behaviour would they be unsuitable for?

[Lou Castle]

Here are some technical facts about e collars. They have taken me a while to collate.

Usually when one quotes someone else, it's customary to post the source for their information.

Poodlesplus wrote: I find the lack of available technical data interesting, and it makes sane rational consumer choices hard to make.

The technical data is available to anyone who wants to do the research. But it will make little sense and no difference to consumers.

Poodlesplus wrote: The normal open circuit voltage, current, vary enormously between manufacturers.

Not really. Amperage is measured in milliamps. Voltage ranges from 3 to about 200, depending on the setting of the collar. The setting is more of a determinant than the brand.

Poodlesplus wrote: I have no idea why collars are called e collars rather than shock collars. It seems like a bit of marketing to me.

The "E" in Ecollar stands for "Electric." It's just a euphemism.

Poodlesplus wrote: "Low stim" is no magic either, it is just a lower setting that you might or might not use on your dog.

There is no such thing as magic in training an animal. But there are significant differences that occur when low level stim is used than when high levels of stim are used.

Poodlesplus wrote: The level of percieved shock is extremely variable, and needs to be adjusted according to the humidity, dog's excercise level, callous formation around the shock application sites to name just a few variables.

None of these variables need to be taken into account by the user. One simply starts with the collar set at zero and slowly turns it up until the dog shows some sign that he feels the stim.

Poodlesplus wrote: I.E think of another paralell adversive that could produce the same change in behavior and make your decisons accordingly.

What "parallel aversive" could produce the same change in behavior as an Ecollar?

Poodlesplus wrote: I sometimes suggest that if it stops a chronic behaviour in a dog, it might be equivalent to knocking a "mature age" male of his bar stool while drinking an ale.

I'd guess by this analogy that you've never used an Ecollar, especially as I advocate, with low level stim. But I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. Have you ever used an Ecollar? Ever used one with modern methods? Ever seen one? Ever felt the stim from one?

Poodlesplus wrote: e collars can generally be used in two modes, as a positive punisher, and as negative reinforcement.

The two "modes" can't be separated. When the button is pressed, +P happens. When it's released –R happens.

Poodlesplus wrote: Here are some inaccuracies that come up time and time again

"The current goes from one terminal to the next " no it doesn't, it goes everywhere!!! The basic realtionship is that I=V/R. well the R changes gradually as you draw arcs away from the terminals.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance. That is going to be between the two contact points. At very high levels it's going to spread out but only minimally, fractions of an inch at most. From an Ecollar worn on the dog's neck it's NOT going to his brain or his heart. This is easily shown by putting the Ecollar on yourself. At low levels it will only be felt where the contact points touch the skin. At the highest levels, because more nerves are enervated, you will feel the muscles twitching near the "box."

Poodlesplus wrote: Can it involve the brain? I don't know. It depends on what the restivity of a path through the brain is compared to a path through muscle and skin tissue.

If you worked out something that put one contact point on one side of the head and the other contact point on the other side of the head then perhaps this could occur. But used as it comes out of the box, it can not involve the brain. If you're going to make outlandish scare statements like this, you should provide citations to support them.

Poodlesplus wrote: "Some how electric fences give a worse kind of shock because the dog is standing on "Mother earth", and the shock travels through the central nervous system"

No, just not true. What happens is that the path of the shock is the least resistance path. This is generally through muscle tissue.

Again, if you expect anyone to believe this, a citation will be necessary. In the case of a stim from an electrified fence the charge will travel from the point of contact with the dog to the whatever he's standing on. As to whether it travels through the CNS or the musculature system will depend on what offers the path of least resistance.

Poodlesplus wrote: It is interesting to note that if a dog makes contact with an electric fence, a couple of different things do happen. The first is that generally the shock path is of much higher resistance than an e collar becuase of the pads of the paws.(They are generally hard and calloused)

Not really pertinent. Many readers will have had the experience of touching an electrified fence. Many will have had the experience of feeling the stim from an Ecollar. There's really no comparison and anyone who has felt both will have no problem deciding which he'd rather feel again. An Ecollar set on low emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful. Ecollars are best used where the dog first feels the stim at the lowest levels.

Poodlesplus wrote: thirdly the dog controls the release of the shock from the fence by moving.

A dog trained with an Ecollar also controls the stim by complying with the command.

Poodlesplus wrote: "TEMS machines and e collars are vaery similar in application, in fact I can barely feel a tems machine or similar such words"

The machine is a TENS, not a TEMS. It stands for Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulator

Poodlesplus wrote: TEMS machines give a "shock" along a nerve path so that the percieved pain along that path is reduced. It is similar to biting your finger to reduce the percieved pain elsewhere.

TENS machines are used like this during childbirth, to distract the mother from the pain of that birth. But they're also used, on lower settings, to stimulate nerves. They're used to help alleviate pain from nerve damage due to injuries.

Poodlesplus wrote: Of course you have complete controllability over the level of the applied shock

And the trainer has "complete controllability over the level of the applied" stim when using an Ecollar.

Poodlesplus wrote: And that brings me to three key issues. It is very easy to give an e collar shock to a dog. It is very easy to get the timing wrong, and hence the dog loses controllability. Like any adversive, it can have unintended side effects.

Timing with an Ecollar is no more or less important than with any other type of dog training tool. The reality is that no one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “very good timing.”

If you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training takes a little longer. If you have so–so timing training takes longer still. If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs or the wrong training effect occurs. Just about anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an Ecollar effectively. Even many who aren't coordinated enough to give a correction can learn to use an Ecollar effectively. If you have HORRIBLE timing, sell your dog and get a goldfish. Timing isn't important with them.

Poodlesplus wrote: Second IMHO it is hypercritical to use other adversives such as chokers and condemm e collars. There is nothing magic or unmagic about them .

Did someone do this? One main advantage is that an Ecollar can't do any physical damage. That's not the case with the choke chain.

Poodlesplus wrote: Third, I am not a great fan of any adversive, I am a great fan of tons of R+, but would in very limited circumstances use them as a last resort.

I'm a great fan of +R too. But it doesn't give great reliability with highly driven dogs. It's good that you're open minded enough to consider the use of an Ecollar when other methods have failed. Some aren't. I know quite a few people who would rather that a dog be PTS rather than to have an Ecollar used to rehab him.

Poodlesplus wrote: What I have said technically is correct, and I have used correct language, stating what are facts and what are not.

I disagree and challenge you to bring forth the studies and/or science that supports it.

Poodlesplus wrote: It would be great if others could do the same. I have no desire to take part in a politician type battle, just a sane calm discussion based on fact.

Fine by me; but since you've failed to provide any support of any kind for your statements they shouldn't be taken as facts.

[Lou Castle]

[Look i don't know where to start. There is so much wrong with your reply.

I've not found anything wrong with erny's reply. So without clarification from you, this statement is simply worthless.

i don't have all the time in the world, I did research this document and I am professionally qualified to comment on the terminology. Most of your reply is electrically incorrect. I stated that I had no desire to get involved beyond that.

No one has "all the time in the world" but still we manage to find the time to contribute. If you don't want to, that's fine but I'd suggest that with nothing to back up your statements, that no one place much credibility in them. Erny's reply is correct from the standpoint of electricity, Ecollars and dog training as well.

Just one iillustration. When we talk about an electric circuit , we talk about the "open circuit" voltage being loaded by an impedance consisting of the internal impedance of the generator and the load impedance. Of course the open circuit voltage is not going to be so dam high you get arcing, but the open circuit voltgae and the internal impedance will vary from manufacuturer to manufacturer to get a partivcular shock.

Internal impedance has little, if anything to do with this topic. What IS important is what's going on externally, at the contact points. That's easily measured and when the impedance of the dog's skin is taken into account (100 ohms is a generally accepted figure) the voltage that's emitted varies from about 3 to about 200, depending on the Ecollar setting.

What would be great is for you to actually research this matter, establish the required open circuit voltage to get arcing on an e collar, and realise what an electrically silly thing you have proposed.

I disagree. You're the one who's making "silly" comments and you're the one who has not backed any of them up.

No more from me, I normally charge for more advice!!

Again, fine by me. But little that you said is pertinent. Nothing that you said was backed up by a study or by anything at all. Therefore no one should believe it as it applies to an Ecollar being used to train a dog.

[Lou Castle]

Firstly I would like to say to you Lou castle that dragging up such an old thread under the guise of an e collar success story

Gee, I'm so sorry that I wasn't around when the topic first came up. I would have written exactly the same thing. And the most recent comment when I found the thread was only about two- three weeks prior to mine. Bosko, the OP was quite clear in the request for success stories;

I was just wondering if anyone has what they would call a success story in treating these types of problems.

I didn't see any and I had two so I posted them. Is there some date past which one is prohibited from responding to a thread? I didn't see any such rule when I joined up.

was a very lame way to try and promote yourself.

Was there an attempt to "promote" myself? I must have missed it. Exactly what benefit do you think might come to me?

There was nothing in your links about the behaviours of those 2 dogs that other trainers have successfully treated and cured without the use of an e collar.

Didja really read what was written about Roma by her owner? http://loucastle.com/roma.htm Jen wrote,

I have tried everything with this dog --standard obedience classes, prong collars, Halti/Gentle Leaders, clicker training, Tellington Touch and even herbal sedatives. While her basic obedience around the house improved significantly with these methods, nothing really addressed her fear based aggression around strangers, cars or other dogs. (Emphasis added)

Jen tried many tools before coming to the Ecollar.

Simon http://loucastle.com/simon.htm had been brought into the shelter on a Monday and because his problem was so severe was going to be PTS on Friday. Nothing would have given results as quickly as did the Ecollar. The trainer who was there knew that and so he turned to the Ecollar. His use before that time was minimal. He'd used many of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" and knew that there wasn't time for them to work.

Pinnalce now addresses Poodlesplus

Everyone knows that even someone who thinks that they have taught the use of this tool properly cannot guarantee that it will be continued to be used properly by the average dog owner/layperson, and before we get into the old retort of any training tool can be used wrongly.

Quite true. Any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiot proof to the right idiot. In this, the Ecollar is no different than any other tool.

I would just like to say that this is why a lot of trainers will not recommend tools that can be misused in the first place.

Can you please name a tool that can't be "misused?" I can't think of a single one.

I was speaking to a woman recently who attended a e collar training session with her dog. These are her words...... there were 8 or so people in the class and while the trainer had split the class in two and sent the first half off to practise while the other half were being shown what to do, there was one man in the class that just kept zapping his dog and the trainer did not see this because the trainer was dealing with the other half of the class. She told me she left the class and decided that this tool was not for her and that she did not want to use it.

I was speaking to a woman recently who attended a clicker training session with her dog. These are her words...... there were 8 or so people in the class and while the trainer had split the class in two and sent the first half off to practise while the other half were being shown what to do, there was one man in the class that just kept treating and treating and treating his dog and the trainer did not see this because the trainer was dealing with the other half of the class. After a few years of this the dog was quite overweight and died of heart failure after living a miserable life because he was so fat and could barely move.

Lastly I have one question for all people who do use e collars if low level stimulation does not work to correct the dogs behaviour what is your next step.

Part of the problem with this question is that you have no idea of how I use the Ecollar. You imagine that it's used when the dog does not comply with a command and that the button is pressed to "correct" that lack of compliance. That's not what I do and I'd suggest that you try reading just one protocol. I'd suggest the recall. http://loucastle.com/recall.htm

The direct response to your question is "go back to the basics." But unless you understand those basics, you won't know what I mean.

[Lou Castle]

What kind of dogs/personality or behaviour would they be unsuitable for?

I've not found a "personality" type that isn't suited for training with the Ecollar. They're excellent for teaching basic OB with.

The second part of your question is so general that I can't answer it. Perhaps if you proposed some behaviors that you're thinking of, I could better respond. I'll try to generalize. The Ecollar is not good for what I call "circus tricks." Getting a dog to balance a piece of cheese on his snout until given a command to eat it, is not a good use of the tool.

[poodlesplus]

Lou

I liked your web site. it didn't promise the earth, and was down to earth.It showed me that e collars are probably slower to teach a recall than good old R+, a recall lead,and a good deep voice. Thats the experience of my students in any case.You see I don't leave recall training in real situations to chance.

Sorry about the quoting etc. I don't spend all my time on forums. You will just have to put up with what i wrote in any case.

Again the technical data and terms you use are generally wrong. For example If you read a good basic text book like Resnick and Halliday it will explain ohms law, and also give you a basic equation for restistivity . If you were a super bright first year student, you might be able to deduce what I said from these two facts. What then helps is to get some maths skills, and get to solve what are called static 3D fields. Saying current follows the path of least resisitance is a bit like saying that antibiotics work by killing of the nasty bugs. It is an over simplification. I guesss thats why I went off and did an EE degree. Ohms law and these notes hold for dogs too. I know that the electrical facts in my note are 100% correct. I have checked, them over and had them checked. They aren't open to debate, unlike a lot of dog training they are just plain old boring scientific fact.

Current flow is proportional to the resistance of the path.Not all the current flows through the path of least resistance in this case. The path between terminals does take a fair bit of the current, but an arc (part of circle NOT an electrical arc) drawn at twice the distance between the will have approximately 1/2 the current etc.It is just as well it does that as nerve involvement and hence sensation could be problematic.These kind of fields are actually suprisingly hard to solve.

I did find the data hard to get. But at the end of the day, you have to look at what happens and the long term effects. Two points I touched on, but don't want to labour as I don't have the time. I am not a professional dog trainer and can't stop to involve myself as much as some of the trainers can.

Unfortunately the attitude of this forum sucks. I gave sound technical data. i gave sound technical replies. I used and contributed my skills and abilities.I had a "professinal" dog trainer (Erny) suggest an open cirucuit voltage so high that arcing would happen. I suggest that rather than waste my time she check out what she said.. If that is how she operates, then i am not at all impressed. i had the usual candidates jump on the usual band wagons.

I did see some highly emotive arguement about e collars and clickers that personally made me laugh. Good one. Still chuckling. I am still wondering how any instructor in any dog class worth their salt would let a dog be treated so insanely that it got overweight and died!.Is this another urban legend????

Then the one about IEC and breeds... give me a break..Some of us are human too!

Then the detail about dog's impedance, it is still a topic of debate. We can barely agree on what the human body model is. Guess how much research has been done on dogs? There are several models. One for face to ground shocks, one for terminal to terminal shocks, another for flank to ground shocks. There is a strong frequency and voltage dependency. Engineers know that it is all a bit of a simplification. It is a bit like "the path of least resistance stunt"

I don't mean to denigrate the fine engineers that work for the e collar companies, but I don't think thy generally attract MIT's finest and best. The technical challenges aren't that enormous and the ones that exist don't seem to be met. You would think that after all these years that the size would be really reduced and some kind of better terminal would have been developed.

I wonder what the ratio of R+D to marketing expenditure is? Interesting

Sorry about the spelling mistakes. You see last week I is a salesman and now I am an ENgimineer.

[Erny]

Unfortunately the attitude of this forum sucks. I gave sound technical data. i gave sound technical replies. I used and contributed my skills and abilities. I had a "professinal" dog trainer (Erny) suggest an open cirucuit voltage so high that arcing would happen. I suggest that rather than waste my time she check out what she said..

Well - I'd suggest you go back and check what I said. If you can't even make accurate assertions of what someone has said or who said it, why should or would I (or anyone) have any confidence in your self-generated claims for degrees, assertions that you are 100% right because you have things checked or any other sprout you make for how good you supposedly are.

If that is how she operates, then i am not at all impressed.

Fortunately I don't spend my time here even remotely attempting to impress you nor anyone else. So nothing lost. Except for the time you spend posting, to which I am amazed seeing as you consistently try to impress on us how busy you are, how you don't have time for explanations and how you didn't want to discuss e-collars after your initial contribution of your own knowledge of how the e-stim on e-collars work. (And for that matter, seeing your lack of ability to support your claims, perhaps nothing gained, either).

Then the one about IEC and breeds... give me a break..Some of us are human too!

Are you referring to all three of you?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Erny

[Arya]

Hi everyone, I know I'm coming to this thread WAY late but thought you might like to hear a 'good' story I have a GSD bitch who was very very dog aggressive/fear aggressive. Now I've spent a helluva lot of time researching this problem with her and did seek professional advice which was a good help - sadly not K9 as I'm in Vic. But you know, in the end it is genetic mostly with my girl, exacerbated by some bad experiences I could not avoid when she was young(have traced back to the source of the problem in her lines I believe). When you have an eight week old pup sitting under the chair at puppy school growling at other pups who are happily interacting with each other you know you've got a problem, even when you then work like crazy to counteract this. The thing is, I was instructed to use aversive method initially to counteract this problem and then reward for correct behaviour. However, the thing that really helped my girl the most was the style of training I was using with her, which I saw in action with other dogs when I took her for a lesson about her aggression. Yes, I'm going to 'bang on' about drive training again. This just happened to be the thing that worked for her, luckily though of course wouldn't work for all dogs. Building a hugely strong bond with the dog using drive training as part of my armoury, together with kind and gentle but firm discipline/leadership to show the dog that I would let her know if there is a problem. This time last year I could not get the dog near other dogs at club. Now I am trialling her and she still isn't best buddies with all other dogs she meets, especially bitches, but yesterday at club I had her standing in a tight circle with half a dozen other dogs, all facing each other (and some of these dogs she's had stoushes with in the past!), good as gold, her face happily grinning, looking constantly at me as we walked a circle around the back of the dogs. There are lots of ways to help this awful problem but using yourself and finding a key (in my case drive training and a tightly knit bond created with the dog thru play and sensible leadership) other than an aversive seems to me to make more sense. I must say, I have seen some methods where an aversive is used the minute the dog stacks up but no other guidance is given to the dog apart from this. It's just 'do it and you'll get a punishment so don't do it'. In fear aggression is this really correct. I am not keen on this. How does the dog learn, other than through force, that it is not necessary or desirable to exhibit the behaviour? One other comment I have is that I have found that constant exposure and work is necessary to keep the dog exhibiting good behaviour around other dogs. It is never fixed imho. If you stop the work there is a regression to previous behaviour. Good old genetics.

[MonElite]

e collars are probably slower to teach a recall than good old R+, a recall lead,and a good deep voice.

Not my personal experience actually. Plus the good old recall lead and a lead smart dog didnt give a sh*t about my deep voice, nor about the treats I held in my hand.

Lou Castle = dog trainer

Erny = dog trainer

Poodlesplus = electrical engineer talking about ohms law.

I know who I would train my dog with.

Edited August 20, 2007 by myszka

[Erny]

I have seen some methods where an aversive is used the minute the dog stacks up but no other guidance is given to the dog apart from this. It's just 'do it and you'll get a punishment so don't do it'. In fear aggression is this really correct.

Hi Arya No - IMO this is not correct. And for that matter, it is not correct for most if not all other causes for unwanted behaviour. It is about showing the dog (and that usually involves guidance) what to do that will keep him/her safe from harm. In otherwords, teaching the dog that aggression (which in most cases is not appetative to the dog) is not intrinsic to its survival under those circumstances.

Drive work is an excellent 'activity' to engage as it can focus the dog's mind to something else whilst still being in the proximity of what the dog previously perceived as a threat worth reacting towards. It is an exercise in 'desensitisation' and with work can serve to teach the dog that what was once a negative is now a positive. Care does need to be taken into account to ensure that the dog's heightened state (especially in early drive work) cannot/does not carry over to defence drive. Like any desensitisation process, the handler still needs to have some knowledge of what they are doing, when and where.

Unfortunately, not all dogs possess the 'drive' necessary to overcome their fear by these methods and that is where other methods of teach, guide and train are required.

It's great that you have managed your dog's problem and I know full well of what you speak of when you talk of frequent ongoing exposure to prevent regression of the behaviour issue when genetics and/or critical period issues are a factor. to your efforts. It's such a buzz though, isn't it, when you own a problematic dog and you recognise even the smallest of steps in improved behaviour.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Erny