Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[Steve K9Pro]

M: When I orignially seeked help for Rexs problems I was hoping that I will be able to let my dog off lead with other off lead dogs, I didnt achieve it for whatever reasons.

K9: "what ever reasons" is what w are discussing...

M: Mainly becouse I couldnt find non reactive dogs in the numbers you recomended - which was minimum two a week. And that was to do the on lead work, before progressing further.

K9: so you gave up? The first strategy I give people is the easiest one I think that will work, on occasions that doesnt work for all dogs so people come back to me for a follow up & we change that strategy as many times as neccessary until we find a suitable out come...

M: Rex is nearly 8 years old, he has a wonderfull life and few friends that he socialises with, I have given up on the idea of walking him with other off lead dogs, stress free, years ago.

K9: which is fine with me, from what I read in your first post I got the impression that this was an unfixable dog, when I can tell you that this wasnt the case.

M: My orignial goals will never be achieved, I have changed my life to accomodate his needs and he seems happy with what I can provide for him.

K9: I will just repost my words from earlier...

I would advise you to look at what you have achieved.

In some of those countless workshops, you had Rex running off leash with all manner of other dogs in close proximity, allowing him him leash pre K9 Force was not possible without problems occuring.

Others have said how far he has come along, you should focus there.

[harper]

Have you found that medication can help whilst doing all the behavioural modification stuff?

Edited July 16, 2007 by bosko

[Steve K9Pro]

Have you found that medication can help whilst doing all the behavioural modification stuff k9?

K9: There are several drugs on the market that can assist in training... This is the key phrase you need to be aware of...

First we do all we can with behaviour modification & then consider drug therapy as a way to get more effect of those programs if anxiety for example is so severe we cannot get the dog into a workable state.

Adding drug therapy alone will have no long term effect on behaviour.

[Vickie]

Have you found that medication can help whilst doing all the behavioural modification stuff?

Bosko, although I rejected medication at the time it was suggested for Zeus, I now realise that it could have been beneficial for him. I don't however believe it could ever have substituted for the variety of exercises we were given to do nor my commitment and the commitment of my trainer in following them through.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Vickie

[MonElite]

I would advise you to look at what you have achieved.

Rex has achieved a good recall. I havent had any other problems with him.

from what I read in your first post I got the impression that this was an unfixable dog, when I can tell you that this wasnt the case.

You arent willing to help me fix it, so yes I gave up.

Edited July 16, 2007 by myszka

[harper]

Have been a procrastinater and had been meaning to call erny for weeks but now we are booked in.

[Steve K9Pro]

M: You arent willing to help me fix it, so yes I gave up.

K9: I am sure you know I am not the only person in this country who has a good reputation.

There are some people who I can help as they can focus on the job at hand, & there are some people I cant help as their focus is always elsewhere...

I dont think there will be any benefit for either of us to continue this discussion here.

[MonElite]

I wont be discussing this anywhere else with you either.

I admire the dedication of people that are willing to travel to other states to seek advice of a reputable trainers. Good on you guys. I woould love to hear sucess stories of people that had serious problems and overcame them to the extend beyond their hopes. If anyone knows of anyone good in Sydney (other than K9) can you pls pm me the details.

Edited July 16, 2007 by myszka

[Steve K9Pro]

M: If anyone knows of anyone good in Sydney (other than K9) can you pls pm me the details.

K9: so you havent given up then....

[MonElite]

M: If anyone knows of anyone good in Sydney (other than K9) can you pls pm me the details.

K9: so you havent given up then....

I own two dogs.... and might own more in the future.

[Vickie]

I dont think there will be any benefit for either of us to continue this discussion here.

I think we all will agree with that.

[harper]

I just wanted to say thanks to those who shared their experiences and for the helpful responses. Much appreciated.

By the way,Vickie, Zeus is one beautiful little chap. :cool:

[Sarah L]

Hi bosko,

I know I have entered this discussion late, but my computer spat the dummy and is still not right, while it is semi working thought I would take the chance to reply to you.

There are many ways to cure fear/anxiety in dogs. Most importantly any training done must be tailored to the dog individually and not lumped into such things as breed specific or what has been done with other dogs and worked. Find the reason for the problem first, eg... what started the problem in the first place. Take full account of what happened and then remember from that point on any time the dog see's, hears or smells something similar to that first account will produce the problem to keep appearing and the dog will continually react in the same way. Dogs work on recollective memory sight, sent and sound. The training program should be set to change the dogs mind on the trigger points so to speak so that the the trigger point is no longer seen in the dogs mind to be a threat. On know account should the trigger point be introduced straight away in the dogs training. Eg.... if the dog is fearful of other dogs there is no point in bringing a dog in, in the initially rehab part of the training program. So if your dog is fearful of strangers there will be no point to keep trying to work the dog around strangers as no matter what you do exercise wise will work because in the dogs mind he will also associate the exercises as the new trigger points to the same problem. I have a detailed set of exercises I give the owner first before reintroducing the trigger points into the training program. Then I introduce the trigger points in an non threatening way to the dog. The trigger points are reintroduced at short positive intervals so as not to overwhelm the dog and gradually build them up until the dog is capable of handling them.

On the point of drug therapy, I have trialed a combination of Prozac on Valium on a Malamute who was aggressive to both people and dogs. However a full blood count must be done first to check the dogs liver and kidney function etc... and the drug therapy must still have a training program to go with it. It is only in extreme cases should drugs be used in dog training. Mostly they are not needed.

On the subject of electric shock collars or prong collars to cure dogs of problems, I personally have never had to use any of these with any of my clients to cure their dogs problems. I am currently researching with veterinary assistance the negatives versus positives use of such devices.

Wishing you all the best in treating your dogs problem.

pinnacle dts

[Steve K9Pro]

On the subject of electric shock collars or prong collars to cure dogs of problems

K9: The rest of your post made perfect sense, but when it seems you think that a certain tool is a cure, you have gone way off. A tool isa tool & nothing more, how good or bad it is really boils down to the user.

There is no such thing these days as a shock collar & I find the people who use that term are trying to excite an emotive response in the readers, rather than provide an objective review of a tool...

I personally have never had to use any of these with any of my clients to cure their dogs problems.

K9: the tools used or recommended need to be based on the dogs temperament, the size & strength of the handler & the problem at hand not a rainers political beliefs.

If a client comes to me that is being dragged around by their large breed, high drive dog, offering them a flat collar is doing them an injustice.. Your exposing that person to more heart ache, when there is no need...

P: I am currently researching with veterinary assistance the negatives versus positives use of such devices.

K9: what use that would that be? you already have a one sided opinion.

You can research all you want but if you found that they are totally harmless, would you start using them?

The answer would be no because apparently your solving all problems that you get? so why research?

I would think it would be wiser to research tools you do use, not ones you dont..

Edited July 18, 2007 by K9 Force

[Lablover]

I have been wondering. Told you all I need a life!!

Do you think canine medications particularly those which could help aggression issues, are not thought as worthwhile, as with humans, simply due to their use, not being studied intensively.

Wish dogs could talk. Just imagine what the problem dogs would say to the various psych therapists.

[Lablover]

I may be too stubborn to learn how to multi quote, but I can find links quickly.

http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/article...l.jsp?id=408432

[Sarah L]

The rest of your post made perfect sense, but when it

seems you think that a certain tool is a cure, you

have gone way off. A tool is a tool & nothing more,

how good or bad it is really boils down to the user.

You have obviously misunderstood me, I did not say I

think a certain tool is a cure…I said “On the subject

of (people thinking) electric shock collars or prong

collars to cure dogs of problems”…a big difference. I

see any tool as one of the components that the owner

can use to fix a problem. The success of the tool

depends on the information given by the trainer and

how well it is understood & used by the owner. It does

not solely rely on the use of the owner, as a trainer

I take some responsibility here as well. If a tool was

a tool and nothing more, there would be no point in

using a tool at all.

There is no such thing these days as a shock collar &

I find the people who use that term are trying to

excite an emotive response in the readers, rather than

provide an objective review of a tool...

Whether you use the terminology of shock or e collar

makes no difference it is still electoral impulses

being sent to the dogs brain that would not normally

be produced by the dog. This was done away with in

humans in the 1930's because it did not work in

solving behavioural problems.

the tools used or recommended need to be based on the

dog’s temperament, the size & strength of the handler

& the problem at hand not a trainers political

beliefs.

I am 5'2 inches and of very slim build. In fact I

weigh exactly 46 kilos. For me, as a trainer, the size

of the dog has nothing to do with it's problem nor my

beliefs. I stated earlier that I have never used

these tools in my training, this is a fact, not a

political belief. Some trainers have learned far more

than what was taught to them in their original

profession and I am proud to say I am one of them.

If a client comes to me that is being dragged around

by their large breed, high drive dog, offering them a

flat collar is doing them an injustice. You’re

exposing that person to more heart ache, when there is

no need...

That may be your opinion & you are entitled to it, but

it is not mine. Remember a flat collar is just a

tool. I find that when I use it in conjunction with

my training techniques, a flat collar can be a useful

tool regardless of the size or temperament of the dog

or handler. I have dealt with many large breed dogs

with so called high drive, in fact they are often

neurotic dogs, frustrated as their training has

nothing to do with the lifestyle the dog actually

leads compared to the life the trainer thinks the dog

should be leading. I was taught by a very wise person

who once said that training is all about technique not

brawn or quick fixes to make the trainer look good.

I don't actually have a one sided opinion on this

subject, that is why I am seeking a more in depth

opinion and doing further research on the subject. The

problem as I see it so far, is that when electrical

shock waves in a dogs brain are given externally you

never know the dog’s true capacity or what the dog can

achieve given the right circumstances. If a trainer

can not give the right circumstances to a problem then

they should not attempt to give an uninformed opinion.

If the results do come back as harmless then it will

be up to the individual trainer as to whether they use

that tool or not, are you forgetting the box part to

the tool.

I have researched many behavioural tools in dog

training and will continue to do so.

Whilst ever my current methods are achieving the

current results I am getting, I do not feel the need

to use methods that are as yet unproven for me in

their effectiveness.

[MonElite]

How are you reserching the ecollars and prong collars pinnacle dts?

[Erny]

Whether you use the terminology of shock or e collar

makes no difference it is still electoral impulses

being sent to the dogs brain that would not normally

be produced by the dog. This was done away with in

humans in the 1930's because it did not work in

solving behavioural problems.

Heck! You have a lot of catching up to do, Pinnacle. E-collars of today no longer work in the same way as they did way back then in the days of the "shock-collar". Today's e-collars stimulate the muscle. It is not about shocking the brain.

[Staranais]

Whether you use the terminology of shock or e collar

makes no difference it is still electoral impulses

being sent to the dogs brain that would not normally

be produced by the dog. This was done away with in

humans in the 1930's because it did not work in

solving behavioural problems.

Heck! You have a lot of catching up to do, Pinnacle. E-collars of today no longer work in the same way as they did way back then in the days of the "shock-collar". Today's e-collars stimulate the muscle. It is not about shocking the brain.

Erny said what I was going to say. E-collar produces an uncomfortable sensation by stimulating the skin and/or muscle. It has nothing to do with the dog's brain, except so far as every stimulus you give a dog (good or bad) is carried to its brain via electrical impulses.

But I do agree with you that trainers shouldn't use tools if they are not informed about how they work or how they affect the dog, so good on you for doing your research.