Treating Anxiety/fear Aggression

[harper]

Was just reading the anxiety and genetics thread with much interest as I have a anxious, fearful, stranger aggressive dog.

I have noticed this type of problem has been posted on occasion with some good advice and recommendations to seek a professional trainer.

I was just wondering if anyone has what they would call a success story in treating these types of problems.

[Cosmolo]

Hi bosko. Mine is a little different as the problem did not manifest as aggression. Instead we had EXTREME fear and avoidance to the point of panic bolting away from people and noises, close to going through windows/ over fences etc. Walking down the street was an ordeal, if there was a noise, she would lose the plot and be mentally 'gone' for the rest of the walk, her recovery time was the worst of any dog i've ever seen. She would panic bolt to the end of the lead and i've never been so grateful for safe equipment. She had already had a number of homes, one of which with a lovely couple who couldn't get anywhere near her.

We adopted her from one of the shelters that we work with and had to do alot of work. Most of what we did early on was flooding, simply because her response occurred as soon as the stimulus was present and to begin with, one of those things was my partner who was obviously around alot. (she was much worse with males) Flooding is not something i would recommend to anyone who is not a professional.

She wasn't too keen on me either to start with but i quickly became the lesser of two evils. She knew nothing when we got her so we quickly taught her some obedience so that we could use that to help her as well. She was far too scared to accept food rewards from anyone other than us and had trouble even eating her meal when we were present. We had a family dinner one evening and she was on her bed being good, so i suggested to my OH that he throw her some lamb to reward her- before she had even realised it was lamb, she bolted to the other end of the house and wouldn't come back until i went and got her. She was a shaking, scared mess.

She started to improve when it was just us around and began to play a bit with the other dogs which she was too nervous to do to start with. But as soon as a visitor came over, she would shut down again and hide in a corner shaking- as far away from the visitor as she could possibly get.

We have now had her for 6 months and she is a totally different dog- albeit still with mild issues. She looks like a normal dog walking down the street and we have taught her a reliable recall so she can play off lead in the park/ beach etc. She is brilliant with us and gets so excited when me or the OH gets home. She has proven to be excellent as far as her obedience and relations with other dogs go- she comes with me alot to see clients as well which helps with her people skills. She is getting better and better with strange people- there are still many she won't readily approach for a pat but she doesn't run away either. She will take food treats from almost anybody and has a few of our friends and family that she really likes.

She still doesn't cope particularly well in very busy environments- but will put herself in a drop rather than panic bolt. We are now ready to work with her in busier places and progress her further. Here is a photo of her when she cut her ear a few months ago. Meet Georgie

[Kelpie-i]

Bosko, you're right when you say that you will be told to seek the services of a professional for your dog's problem, however could you please enlighten us as to the type of anxiety, fear and aggression you mention. Is to to other dogs or to humans or to everything in general??

[harper]

Thanks for your replies.

Cosmolo your girl is absolutely adorable! Thanks for sharing your experience as I know fear is a large part of our problem.

Like Georgie, my dog is doing great with obedience and sociallising with other dogs but he can be very skittish, anxious and demanding of attention ( although I do try to only reward relaxed behaviour and ignore attention seeking behaviour). He will sniff the hand of the people at obedience and take food off them but still maintains a fearful posture and retreats quickly. He seems to have a tiny bit more confidence around people with dogs.

Strangers are his biggest fear, especially men.

When I say aggression what I mean that often when a stranger focuses their attention on him he barks in an aggressive manner.

There is alot more to this but it would probably take me 10 pages to explain. I did get a home visit from a trainer who did help with a couple of things but am going to be seeing another one on a more regular basis to really attempt to get the best posible outcome.

Was just wondering what other people experiences have been in treating this kind of problem.

[skip]

HI Bosko

I'm surprised that more people haven't answered your post. There are a lot of dogs that have this behaviour. I have two rescue dogs and was not that experienced with dogs. I got some outside help from a trainer and joined obedience.

One was 8 months old and spent most of that time in a pen. But she was oK it was a 1 1/2 year old xbred dog that was scared of people espicially men. And if you pick up a paper or hold a belt he is gone, petrified! He wouldn't allow anyone to hold him by the collar. In fact even a year later doing flyball he panics if a handler tries to hold him by his collar.

But they do come good gradually with consistant training. I took him to the vet for needles and I remember her saying it can take 12 months for a dog like him to settle down. I took my dog places to gradually build up his confidence. I remember a man who looked at him on the street to comment on his breeding and looks. He was maybe less impressed when the dog went agro and barked growled etc. Just cause the bloke looked him in the eye.

But now he is so more confident. He loves an older man at the dog park that he thinks is the best ever. As he goes to the park every day he will often bolt over to other walkers he knows to visit, male and female. Not the dogs usually the people. And he sucks up to them so much he gets pats and even treats. He is pretty popular and laps up all the affection he can get. Such a change.

My friends called him a "special needs" dog. Maybe he will always be a little bit sensitive but he improves constantly. And this could also be why he is also so desperate to please and easy to train. I could do with a little less seperation anxiety too but again it is not as bad as before. I couldn't be happier with him. I supose it is modifiying his behaviour not really changing his nature.

Don't know if this is what you were asking. My dog is only small and was older when I got him so I don't have the same problems you maybe have. I am not experienced with dogs but I've learnt heaps from this dog.

With your trainers help I'm sure your dogs behaviour will change. Let DOL know how he goes and what works. I'd be interested.

Edited June 25, 2007 by skip

[harper]

Thanks for sharing your dogs story skip. Experiences like yours and cosmolos have given me more encouragement.

I am in the 'learning' category with this type of problem (and everything else ) and I have done a lot of reading on the subject but had not found any personal experiences with treating this type of thing so really appreciate the feedback.

I will let you know how we go.

Edited June 26, 2007 by bosko

[Lablover]

Interested to hear how you are getting on.

Those who have treated seriously aggressive (to humans and animals) dogs, has a total cure ever occurred?

[Anissa]

Interested to hear how you are getting on.

Those who have treated seriously aggressive (to humans and animals) dogs, has a total cure ever occurred?

I have to admitt that I have not hoge experiences but one of my dogs is aggressive as well and I train him now for 2 years with some improvement. But I am pretty sure that it is very unlikely to cure aggression completely. Aggession tends to be a very self rewarding and therefore "successful" behaviour for the dog.

Even if you have trained an alternating behaviour this "option" will stay for the dog and I personally wouldn't trust my dog... ;)

But meybe someone else was really successful?

And as a tip: there are some very good books about aggressive behaviour. I personally like the ones from James O'Heare. You get a lot of insight into that topic.

[BittyMooPeeb]

Interested to hear how you are getting on.

Those who have treated seriously aggressive (to humans and animals) dogs, has a total cure ever occurred?

I dont think you can 'cure' behaviour problems - 'curing' implies a once off solution, and working with behaviour issues is no different from any other dog training - it has to be constantly reinforced.

For example, making yourself a supremo pack leader may greatly improve fear associated problems, but you always need to stay in this position - you cant lower yourself in the pack and expect the problems not to return. What will change though is the amount of effort you need to put into maintaining the ideal situation (whatever it is) because:

- once a pattern is established, your dog will only need reminding of it, rather than training in it (just like the effort to reinforce recall is much less than teaching recall in the first place)

- the new regime will become part of your life and you will just do things in your normal routine.

A dog that has been agressive in the past will also need lifelong management to reduce risk to other animals and to people. This may mean things such as

- secure fencing

- no off lead excercise

- being muzzled in public

- being put in a dog run when children visit

etc etc (these are just examples - what each dog needs will differ)

So it's a definite "no" for a cure .

Rehabilitation, along with ongoing training and management can however allow you and your dog to live a happy, normalish life

I'm not sure why the OP indicated that seeing a behaviourist was not a desired option. In my opinion is is ESSENTIAL in this situation. I've used DogTech in Canberra and they are fantastic ;) . A good behaviourist will be able to assess your dog and advise you on how much improvement you can expect (ie is the dog able to be rehabilitated or not).

Best of luck

[Kaz]

I've just got my first fearful case - sounds a lot like yours, Cosmolo. Though the recovery time doesn't seem quite as bad.

Have only just started working with him so fingers crossed.

[harper]

Interested to hear how you are getting on.

Those who have treated seriously aggressive (to humans and animals) dogs, has a total cure ever occurred?

Thanks Lablover.......Two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, two steps back.

The vet has suggested to use a prozac style (cant remember the name of it) medication temporarily along with training.

What are peoples thoughts on these types of drugs?

[MonElite]

Those who have treated seriously aggressive (to humans and animals) dogs, has a total cure ever occurred?

Well I kinda have one of each. Not seriously at all but enough to cause headaches.

Rex is dog agro, I have spend countless hours at K9s workshops and had few private lessons, I have spend countless hours trying to implement the stuff but unfortunatelly Rex still doesnt like nor accepts other male dogs and he someitmes might not like a female as well.

I have a better control of him and just dont put him in the "hot" situations, but I cant say that he is cured in any way. I think he now avoids the situations as well, but if he wasnt under strick control there is no way Id trust him to run up to an unknown dog and

Divani - she isnt agressive she is extremly aloof and I scared of man, but I have persisted with her training and making any encounter with a male a positive experience.

She at shows accepts the thorought examination by any male, with no reaction. (you might recall I had dramas a while ago) If she meets a new male she might avoid him touching her, but once she meets someone (given time and being ignored) she is ok and accepting of them. I dont think she will ever be willing to run up to a male and say hello on her own, but that aslo isnt my aim, Im happy for her not to go to people, but accept them when I say so.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: A "cure" is known as total rehabilitation & will not always be possible dependant on many factors from genetics, age of the dog when rehab begins, the age the dog was when it started displaying symptoms, how long the problem has been there untreated to the dedication of the dogs owner.

Fear aggression for example can have the action side of "aggression" cured but the fear may remain, dependant on the reasons I gave above.

Having said that, when people bring me a dog that is displaying fear aggression, if they focus on rehabiliating that problem only, come back for the follow ups & stick with the advice given, commonly they do quite well.

See http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=grace.html & http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=jeddah.html

*******************************

M: Rex is dog agro, I have spend countless hours at K9s workshops

K9: which I may add were to cover various topics most not in any relation to dog aggression...

and had few private lessons,

K9: to be exact 1 & 1 only lesson with Rex where the topic was aggression, you did have a second lesson but that was on training in drive & might I add you had several other goals at the first lesson. That first lesson was about 2 - 3 years ago.. Your primary goal was getting a recall, you felt at the time the aggression was uncureable...

As I remember, you also said the reliable recall would never happen.. Your countless you tube clips you have posted on here & the countless times you have had your dog off leash stand testimony of the recall you were taught...

*******************************

K9: much of the advice I give people is to stop training other disciplines, like show training, showing dogs, retrieving, dumbell retrieval, obedience club training, training in drive etc etc & stay away from areas where there are large numbers of dogs where the dog in question can "practice" the aggression.

Things like programs to improve leadership & control are also given.

Most people will follow this advice, some dont, they want to do everything the same as they did in the past & expect change, that is not going to happen..

The other thing that is very important is for people to recognise the improvements they have made...

[Vickie]

Was just reading the anxiety and genetics thread with much interest as I have a anxious, fearful, stranger aggressive dog.

I have noticed this type of problem has been posted on occasion with some good advice and recommendations to seek a professional trainer.

I was just wondering if anyone has what they would call a success story in treating these types of problems.

Hi Bosko,

I would call my Zeus a success story. He has just turned 10 years old. At 5 months, my vet suggested that it would be impossible for him to function & be manageable without drugs for the rest of his life and the alternative would be PTS. He was extremely fearful of people, other dogs and unknown objects & his defense in any of these situations was aggression.

I decided at that point that I was unwilling to use medication & wanted to let him grow up a little to see if he would grow out of it (stupid me!). Over the next year he got progressively worse & I enlisted the help of a professional dog trainer, Pinnacle dts (who has just joined the forum) & we started a program of desensitisation and exercises to help him trust me to protect him. We tackled each of his fears & worked on them separately. It was not a quick fix and took months of me following precisely each exercise we were given as well as follow ups over the next couple of years. I am pleased to say, he progressed from a pup who was unable to cope with anything in life to a dog I can walk happily offleash in the presence of other dogs & people. He became a great companion, a successful agility dog and most people do not believe me now when I describe how he started out. If you observe closely now, you can see his real temperament & it is certainly possible to create a situation where he would be uncomfortable (but unreactive), but my goal was to have a happy, comfortable dog I could manage without fear of him attacking people or dogs & I certainly feel we achieved this.

I will be forever grateful to Pinnacle dts, she has saved his life on 2 occasions & helped me to give him such a better life than the one he seemed destined for at 5 months. I was told by vets he could never be a normal functioning or happy dog...they were wrong.

Here's my happy boy:

Good Luck

Vickie

Edited July 16, 2007 by Vickie

[JayGee]

The other thing that is very important is for people to recognise the improvements they have made...

I know I've done a hatchet job of Steve's comments, but I feel this comment is rather important to highlight for anyone dealing with fear aggression. This statement has actually become a mantra in my life, but it is so easy to forget in one of "those" moments!!! I spend a lot of time making statments like "two years ago, I would never have put Jeddah in this situation", or "one year ago, we would never have expected Jeddah to do this". Remembering where you have come from and how far you have travelled is what keeps you going.

We are currently looking after our son's greyhound. This probably doesn't sound too much of a stretch to most people, but for us to have another dog living under the same roof as Jeddah, well, we're stoked to say the least. One more achievement........ One more good experience for Jeddah. That's all I want, for her to add to her pile of good experiences, and for that pile to eventually outweigh those scarey experiences. (I'm pretty sure I've stolen this from one of K9 Force's lessons).

Jeddah has been the most demanding and testing dog that I've ever owned, and the only dog that I've not had from puppy stage. But funny enough, my relationship with her is the closest I've ever experienced with any animal. I often wonder if the extra work that she and I have had to do to overcome her fears, has increased our bond? I'm certain that it has.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: JG you have done a perfect job of explaining things...

People should also know that the second link I gave IS the story of JayGee, they live in Qld & with the help of a great trainer in Queensland, myself & some great commitment from JayGee & Family, the results are something to be proud of..

[ILFC]

Well, I take my hat off to anyone dealing with agression issues. I find separation anxiety issues bad enough. So so true though about concentrating on that problem alone; once I let go of thinking that Grover could still progress towards obedience trialling our progress has been fantastic.

[MonElite]

K9 relax - it looks as if you took my post as an attack on services. It wasnt. Everyone here know that I have been and still am recomending you no end.

As I remember, you also said the reliable recall would never happen..

Why would I continue going to you for advice if I didnt belive that achieving something was possible....

How did the lesson with my friends dog that attacked Rex at lure coursing went? Hopefully this will be another sucess story.

My main problem with following advice given to me was finding people and dogs that I could work with. I couldnt find many (if any) with entire male dogs that were non reactive. Therefore even the best advice was for me impossible to conduct.

I did achieve a lot of control with the dog, mainly a very good recall, but the fact remains that my dog was and is male dog agressive. He is absolutly fine with the dogs he knows, if I meet a desexed male and the person is willing to give me some time to introduce the dogs properly than he is also fine, but there is no way I would attempt this with an entire male dogs.

Edited July 16, 2007 by myszka

[Steve K9Pro]

M: Why would I continue going to you for advice if I didnt believe that achieving something was possible....

K9: people come all the time feeling defeated & unhopeful, its not uncommon at all.

M: How did the lesson with my friends dog that attacked Rex at lure coursing went? Hopefully this will be another sucess story.

K9: I am sure she will be able to update you with her progress...Thats not my position to discuss other clients cases.

M: My main problem with following advice given to me was finding people and dogs that I could work with. I couldnt find many (if any) with entire male dogs that were non reactive. Therefore even the best advice was for me impossible to conduct.

K9: This is no easy task for anyone, but far from impossible. I did successfully handle your dog using my entire male dog as the decoy, I think you will agree that it went very well..

M: I did achieve a lot of control with the dog, mainly a very good recall

K9: which as I said was your primary goal at lesson one...

M: but the fact remains that my dog was and is male dog agressive.

K9: There is only so much I can do in one lesson. Your dog needs some further work but I am not sure how much you want to discuss here...

I would advise you to look at what you have achieved.

In some of those countless workshops, you had Rex running off leash with all manner of other dogs in close proximity, allowing him him leash pre K9 Force was not possible without problems occuring.

Others have said how far he has come along, you should focus there.

I believe if dog aggression rehabilitation was your only goal, it would have been achieved by now...

[MonElite]

OP and LL asked for stories, I gave mine. I have one sucess and one faliure of achieving what I wanted with my dogs.

When I orignially seeked help for Rexs problems I was hoping that I will be able to let my dog off lead with other off lead dogs, I didnt achieve it for whatever reasons. Mainly becouse I couldnt find non reactive dogs in the numbers you recomended - which was minimum two a week. And that was to do the on lead work, before progressing further.

Your dog needs some further work

I guess you will not get the opportunity to guide me in that work - from memory Im no longer welcome at anything you organise.

Rex is nearly 8 years old, he has a wonderfull life and few friends that he socialises with, I have given up on the idea of walking him with other off lead dogs, stress free, years ago. My orignial goals will never be achieved, I have changed my life to accomodate his needs and he seems happy with what I can provide for him.

Edited July 16, 2007 by myszka