Anxiety And Genetics

[Cosmolo]

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this as i notice that certain breeds seem to be predisposed to anxiety, sometimes even when owners have done an excellent job. While i have seen anxiety across all breeds, there are certain breeds that appear to stand out as regularly presenting with some kind of anxiety.

To give an example (and i am not breed bashing- i love the breed but it is an observation) I am yet to meet a Weimaraner without anxiety in some way shape or form, most often separation anxiety.

Have other trainers noticed trends like this? Is there a glaringly obvious explanation which i am missing!?

[Tonymc]

Cosmolo,I feel genetics plays a much bigger part in some issues than maybe currently acknowledged.

Its well known with Humans,that many Psychological conditions have a Genetic Predisposition.Some People are born with a low Threshold towards certain Emotional dysfunctions and or Problems such as Alcoholisim.Most of the Personality Disorders have a Genetic factor.

Animals are no different.I have seen Genetics not only dictate the Physical appearance of a Horse,Dog,Cow so on but also stamp its affect on the Psychology of the Animal in a negative way.

As we all know an Animal to be basic has two aspects, the Physical and the Psychological.Some only pay attention to the Physical neglecting the other.Neglecting the Psychological sooner or later extracts a price.

I am all for continually asessing Animals in any Field as to the soundness of their Psychology.Testing for soundness needs to be a routine procedure and if found lacking,breeding practises need to be undertaken to rectify or overcome any weakness.

The above are some of the reasons,why I am all for Dogs working or carrying out some type of activity as this will highlight if there are any Genetic based weakness or malfunction in the Animals Psychology. Tony

[poodlefan]

Absaflaminglutely Cosmolo. Asking about whether parents were timid can often be illuminating (provided of course that the parents are known).

Ditto for aggression. That's why people need to be careful about laying the blame for behavioural issues solely at the feet of the owner.

[leopuppy04]

Not to do with dogs but may provide some insight.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v2/n9/pdf/nn0999_780.pdf

another one on animal anxiety:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5lw8q...e2/fulltext.pdf

This one you have to buy (or go to a library and source!):

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pi...558787806001158

I haven't been able to read them so not sure of their relevance.

Google Scholar is a great tool for finding scientific papers - just type in variations of what you want to look for. eg: "dogs and anxiety", "anxiety and genetics" etc,etc.

I find it an interesting topic and am almost convinced that they are linked. Just like aggressive parents can give aggressive pups - it is just as likely that anxious parents can give anxious pups. Those formative 8 weeks can pick up so much from the parents - yet if you separate them, you will be far worse off. I guess this is why it is often commented how much the pups behave like their mother as opposed to their father.

Some dogs are also natural worriers. I know that the aussies in America tend to me a lot more reserved than what Aussies tend to be here also. Result - end up in the wrong hands, not enough social and you have a fearful, anxious or aggressive dog, be it to other dogs or humans.

I do believe there is speculation of studying this further - but I don't envy whoever will take it on - the project will be HUGE!

I guess this is why knowing the parents is so important. If you know what the parents are like in a variety of situations - you'll have a pretty good idea of how the pups will be also

Edited June 21, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

I know there is a link between psychological characteristics of the parents and offspring- but why does it appear to be breed specific? Surely not every Weim breeder is breeding from anxious parents? Can anxiety be carried on a recessive gene? So it does not show in the parents but presents in the offspring? The last 5 Weims i have come across (2 of which were being used as sires) have all been anxious and all been from registered breeders with excellent parentage.

[leopuppy04]

I know there is a link between psychological characteristics of the parents and offspring- but why does it appear to be breed specific? Surely not every Weim breeder is breeding from anxious parents? Can anxiety be carried on a recessive gene? So it does not show in the parents but presents in the offspring? The last 5 Weims i have come across (2 of which were being used as sires) have all been anxious and all been from registered breeders with excellent parentage.

Perhaps because certain traits that they select for in a breeding programme is directly linked to anxiety also. It is my understanding that the smaller poodles and some cavvies can also be sufferers of anxiety??

So - using that as an example - they are bred to be devout lovers of humans and daily companions - so if you don't provide that they will become anxious.

I notice a lot of GSD's are anxious too.

So many genes are linked - perhaps that is how it comes about. You breed for one thing and it can cause another, less desirable trait to pop up....

Is that more along the lines of what you were thinking?

Were these dogs that you have seen, correctly suited to thier families in your eyes?

[Cosmolo]

Yes, thats more so what i was thinking. I understand the link between dogs that are companion dogs can suffer anxiety if these needs are not met, but why some of the hunting breeds- Weims, GSP's etc? I can't say i've noticed it excessively in the GSD's i have seen- usually those cases were more related to upbringing, handling etc. All the dogs were suited to their families in my opinion. Would a breeder cut an otherwise excellent rep of the breed for being anxious?

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Have you read 'Animals in Translation' by Temple Grandin? If not, I highly recommend it. She talks a lot about the link between physical characteristics and behavioural characteristics. Some genes are inter-linked. For example, she talks about the genetic link between animals with low pigmenation levels and anxiety/aggression.

I don't agree with everything she says as some of it is a little questionable, but it's a fascinating read.

(I know she expresses some anti-breed sentiments in there, but I don't want this to turn into an anti-BSL thread. She has more to offer than that in her book.)

Edited June 21, 2007 by rhapsodical78

[montall]

A lot of small dogs seem to suffer anxiety. Chihuahuas are a breed that comes to mind. You see a lot of those that are clingy. I suppose that's not all that surprising really, everything must look so BIG to the poor little things.

[Tonymc]

Like Leo,said a Gene can have more than one trait linked to it. Tony

[Rom]

Here's a contribution that I'm not sure will help.

A pro trainer whose seminar I attended, maybe going back 2 years or so had the following to say about the characteristics of alpha's, beta's and omega's in the pack:

Alpha:

High threshold to pain.

High threshold to stress.

Less likely to bite, but if it does it means serious business and does real damage.

Independent and aloof.

Low degree of compliance.

Calm and confident.

Omega:

Low threshold to pain.

Low threshold to stress.

More likely to bite, but less likely to cause serious damage.

Requires more interaction with the pack and looks to the pack for guidance.

High degree of compliance.

Shows more nervous behaviours

Betas: can have variations in both the above characteristics and thresholds show more variations.

I don't know whether or not the above is true, but I wonder if when man was first domesticating the dog (or dog domesticating man whichever way it really happened ) and was selecting for certain traits for certain purposes, whether intentionally or not, they were also selecting for the above?

In general terms, because I do accept that you find all variations of temperament within a breed, when you hear of certain characteristics being tied with a certain breed, you can also tie that characteristic to the purpose for which that breed was originally intended. For example, those breeds that were intended to follow mans directions to fulfil their purpose generally show the omega trend of behaviours. Those breeds that were required to work independently of man generally show the alpha trend in behaviours. So we get ACD's that are likely to be 'nippy', BC's that show appeasement behaviours when they are first introduced to stand for exam from the working dog group. From the gun dog group we get Wei's that show stress behaviours. On the other end of the spectrum from the hound group we get the hard headed dogs that are rare in obedience competitions.

The above is just the wanderings of my own idle mind and I'm not sure if it is entirely correct.

[Monah]

I don't know many vizs but mine is definately anxious/fear aggressive due to genetics. I don't put any blame on the breeder who is lovely. i think maybe a dog from her ancestry must have had probs and know a couple did (found out after asking about mine) but we have done a lot of work with her and she is getting there. When we first got her she would hide under a chair, bite if anyone went near and was pretty awful, so much so that we were told by a couple of professional to return her asap. but i was in love. She was only 12 weeks old and treated excellently with lots of other doggies.

Have since heard of other viz with little probs, but I love them and they really are affectionate and loving. She's my girl. I know most are not like this. A funny thing is my daughter is in uk and has seen many vizs and one stood it's ground and barked aggressively at a 5 year old rel. in Richmond park. Just like ours!!!! My daughter was amazed, it was so much like our girl (but a male) in behaviour. Just last weekend. So we are not the only ones. A bit of comfort there!!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think she is a beta /alpha and my spin is a beta/omega (she would never bite and is not nervous but the viz would and is,)I find genetics in behaviour very interesting. With humans too. Nurture verses nature.

[Vickie]

I know there is a link between psychological characteristics of the parents and offspring- but why does it appear to be breed specific? Surely not every Weim breeder is breeding from anxious parents? Can anxiety be carried on a recessive gene? So it does not show in the parents but presents in the offspring? The last 5 Weims i have come across (2 of which were being used as sires) have all been anxious and all been from registered breeders with excellent parentage.

I think anxiety, just like any other trait can be carried in recessive genes. I am fortunate enough to know the parents & some of the grandparents of my girls well. While I can pick individual traits in each of them from both their parents, I would say that each of them actually share more traits with their grandmother than their mother or father.

I can even pick working traits in each of them that are more like their GM than M.

I know I have shared this before, but it's interesting as far as recessive traits. Trim likes to suck on things, like a blanket, similar to what kittens do. Her eyes glaze over & she kneads with her paws. Shine does not. Family history is:

Dog A yes

Offspring 1 - No. Approx. half of her offspring do, even though she doesn't.

Offspring 2 - Yes. Approx. half of her litters do. Of the 2 that have been bred, one does & one does not. I don't know the stats on the pups, but would assume it would be half again, both from the bitch that does & the one that doesn't.

[leopuppy04]

Yes, thats more so what i was thinking. I understand the link between dogs that are companion dogs can suffer anxiety if these needs are not met, but why some of the hunting breeds- Weims, GSP's etc? I can't say i've noticed it excessively in the GSD's i have seen- usually those cases were more related to upbringing, handling etc. All the dogs were suited to their families in my opinion. Would a breeder cut an otherwise excellent rep of the breed for being anxious?

Do you see it at all in working breeds as well? I think borders, aussies etc are prone to it as well because of the traits we breed them for - to work close with handler etc, all day in the field.... Perhaps this is similar for Weims and GSP's..... Goldies too? I'm just prattling off breeds - I may be wrong!

Another thought - we have moved away a little from the 'true workers' - so Bob who was a not so good worker but a great companion got bred to Sally who was the same temperament. They could still work, but their soft temperaments was desired by those who wanted them for companions.... Perhaps that is why?? So we breed for the 'softer' temperament and end up with a more anxious dog perhaps?

What about drive? Were these dogs active, really driven dogs? I often wonder if dogs in high drive are also highly reactive.... not 100% related, but a thought...

In terms of breeding - nope I wouldn't cut it out of the programme, but I would breed to a more confident mate...... and do HEAPS of social

[Vickie]

You probably have to look at what "anxious" is. It's a pretty broad term.

I would think it would be hard for any breeder not to produce it somewhere, especially when you take recessive traits into account and I guess they need to use their discretion on whether it should be bred on.

I think it's certainly possible in the working breds. If you take 2 biddable dogs & breed them, even though neither one is particularly anxious, the double dose of biddability could certainly create a dog who is so biddable that they become anxious about doing the right thing. But that is a different dog to the one who is anxious about thunderstorms etc.

I think genetics are extremely complicated and once we start to add learned behaviour in, it would be very difficult to pinpoint traits & exactly how they came about. I guess it makes sense that if we see a lot of anxiety in one breed then it stand to reason that it will be continued. I often wonder this about Shelties. Many of the ones I see in Australia seem to have anxiety issues & yet in the US, they do not to the same extent? Maybe popular sire syndrome?

Edited June 21, 2007 by Vickie

[Tonymc]

quote from Leo.

Another thought - we have moved away a little from the 'true workers' - so Bob who was a not so good worker but a great companion got bred to Sally who was the same temperament. They could still work, but their soft temperaments was desired by those who wanted them for companions.... Perhaps that is why?? So we breed for the 'softer' temperament and end up with a more anxious dog perhaps?

I could not agree with your above point more Leo!!!!!!thats one of the reasons I have no interest in Dogs that are not tested or worked!!!!Any line of Dog that is not worked or at least tested,I avoid like the Plague!!!! Tony

[leopuppy04]

I think it's certainly possible in the working breds. If you take 2 biddable dogs & breed them, even though neither one is particularly anxious, the double dose of biddability could certainly create a dog who is so biddable that they become anxious about doing the right thing. But that is a different dog to the one who is anxious about thunderstorms etc.

Very vaild point. My two can sometimes be 'anxious' about getting something wrong - but there are so many variations to anxiety itself. Even though I know which type Cosmolo is talking about - perhaps they are all related.... soo.... if you find the gene that affects anxiety, breed away from it, and you have to an extent changed another factor in the dog (more headstrong perhaps?). Gotta love genetics - everything influences something else one way or another

I think genetics are extremely complicated and once we start to add learned behaviour in, it would be very difficult to pinpoint traits & exactly how they came about. I guess it makes sense that if we see a lot of anxiety in one breed then it stand to reason that it will be continued. I often wonder this about Shelties. Many of the ones I see in Australia seem to have anxiety issues & yet in the US, they do not to the same extent? Maybe popular sire syndrome?

Not only that - usually multiple genes affect one trait - so in essence if you were to breed 'anxiety' out you could inadvertently affect another trait of that particular breed. Very few genes are so simple to be single or even a double trait...... Add to that also all the 'environmental' causes that affects the 'phenotypic' response and you wonder why we are only just starting to crack the surface of genes and genomes now Yeah - I have noticed breed traits to differ not only overseas but to a smaller scale interstate also. It would have to be down to the type of stock used, you would think.

Tonymc:

quote from Leo.

Another thought - we have moved away a little from the 'true workers' - so Bob who was a not so good worker but a great companion got bred to Sally who was the same temperament. They could still work, but their soft temperaments was desired by those who wanted them for companions.... Perhaps that is why?? So we breed for the 'softer' temperament and end up with a more anxious dog perhaps?

I could not agree with your above point more Leo!!!!!!thats one of the reasons I have no interest in Dogs that are not tested or worked!!!!Any line of Dog that is not worked or at least tested,I avoid like the Plague!!!! Tony

Let me guess - you are a farmer? LOL - I agree - there are clear differences between 'true' workers and companions, but as to whether or not i'd change that is another debate ;). But it again shows you the slight deviations in genetics and characteristics. Using working dogs coz I am a little more familiar with them - you want a 'true' worker to be slightly harder 'headed' so that they can 'refuse' a command when they deem ie: no i'm not going to come because a sheep has got out (a perfect example is Trim the other week). Joe pet owner wants a BC coz they are smart and listens to his every word etc.....

Edited June 21, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Kelpie-i]

To be anxious is to have a fear of the unknown which is usually brought on by experience/environment/up bringing and is less likely to be genetic. However when a dog has weak nerves, this can certainly be due to genetics. The lay term is "skittish", although some people use the word "anxious" to describe the characteristic of the behaviour.

Genetics is such a powerful force in determining the behaviour of a dog, one that is all too often overlooked by many behaviourists. It calculates to 70% of the dog's overall behaviour.

Cesar Milan states that there is no such thing as an anxious dog, only an anxious owner who transfers this anxious energy to the dog. Interesting thought!

[sas]

I read something today suggesting that if stress is caused to a pregnant bitch that can be passed on......I'm not sure where they come to this conclusion though.

I'm definately a believer in certain types of behaviours to stem from genes, it's hard to otherwise explain a line of dogs who all exhibt certain behavioural issues such as fear aggression....what are your thoughts?

Certain breeds (just talking about a line here of a certain breed) being bred for the bred characteristic of being aloof to strangers but when actually assessed it's fear aggression....another thought to ponder on?

Also how would you explain a litter of aggressive 4-5 week old puppies that haven't had bad experiences?

Edited June 21, 2007 by sas

[leopuppy04]

I read something today suggesting that if stress is caused to a pregnant bitch that can be passed on......I'm not sure where they come to this conclusion though.

Yep - i've heard this too. I think this is the reasoning to why Guide dog 'mums' spend sooo much time at the 'breeding facility' and come in weeks prior to whelping date - so that they can keep the stress to a minimum.

Certain breeds (just talking about a line here of a certain breed) being bred for the bred characteristic of being aloof to strangers but when actually assessed it's fear aggression....another thought to ponder on?

Hmm... some substance to this yes, but there is still 'aloof' in my mind which isn't aggression (fear or otherwise) at all. For example, Aussies are supposed to be reserved. The correct 'reserved' aussie for me is one that doesn't readily go up to a stranger and screams "pat me!" (ok - so that rules Leo out ). A reserved Aussie is not one that is fearful but one that will just stand by it's owner - if a stranger went to pat it, it wouldn't bark, growl or shy away - it just doesn't readily seek out attention from others. So it is still perfectly confident in it's environment. But yes, there is a fine line and I have had many a discussion about this as to whether or not the trait is 'desirable' (mostly with US breeders/owners)... I think the people that do like the trait are ones that like to feel 'special' because their dog singles them out... Having said that - the standard clearly states that although they may be reserved 'upon first meeting' (ie: meet dog more than twice and you are 'known') it should show no signs of fear or aggression....

Sorry going off on a tangent - don't mean to offend anyone, and just trying to say that not all 'aloof' is fear aggression

Also how would you explain a litter of aggressive 4-5 week old puppies that haven't had bad experiences?

genetic - 100% genetic. To me - aggression can come in 3 forms - and can sit anywhere between the 3...

1. Genetic - so contributed to solely by parents

2. Environmental & Genetic - obviously the most common.

3. Environmental - perhaps mistreated earlier in life...