tollerjosie Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hello! I have a fantastic little female toller born on July 23, 2006. Ever since I picked her up from the breeder I've had problems with her diet. She started out on Eukanuba Puppy which she wouldn't eat at all. I then put her on Hill's Puppy which worked fine for a while, but then she had a rash that neither I or the vets could figure out, and she started to vomit pretty often (like every other week at least) and she also had diharrea (unsure of the spelling, bare with me - I'm from Norway ;)) often. Around Christmastime last year she had a stomach infection, and was then put on Hill's i/d, that didn't work, so I put her on Royal Canin Medium Puppy after she'd recovered from the infection. That also worked fine for a while, but the rash still wouldn't go away and she was still sick all the time. I went to the vet's (again) and they told me to put her on Hill's z/d, on which she lost 3 kilos (!!! ). The poor thing Now she's on a raw food diet, and she's gained 2,5 kilos :p But she still gets diharrea pretty often (not as frequent as before, but still often compared to dogs at normal health). She's also started "gagging" but nothing comes out, like she has the flue or something, but she doesn't have that either. I've given up with the vets almost, because they just sit on their bottoms and tell me to change her diet again. She's almost 11 months old and she's already changed the diet more often than most dogs do their entire life. Finally, I found a vet who just did a light examination of Josie and she actually listened to what I had to say, and she said that Josie probably has a combination of IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome/Disease), atopic dermatitis (if that even makes sense?) and food allergies... Anyone out there who has similar experiences or advice to give to an owner at her wits end? Sincerely, Miriam and Josie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frufru Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Hi Miriam, I can only speak about the food allergy part ( which presented in my dog as a skin problem: small sores and frequent scratching and inflamed skin) I worked out what food she was allergic to by doing an elimination diet. To do this you need a food which is a novel source of protein ( I used Eukanuba fish and potatoe diet available from vets) The dog ate this and this only (no extras, no treats) for 10 weeks. There was a definite improvement. At this point you can reintroduce other foods one at a time to see if there is a reaction. I kept her on the fish and potatoe dry food but then looked for a raw meaty bone which she could tolerate which turned out to be turkey - lamb, beef and chicken give her an upset tummy. She was also allergic to any grains (rice, wheat etc). I am also careful with shampoos as she will react to these too. Since your dog responded so well to the food you made yourself maybe you should base you elimination diet on this (using a novelk source of protein (duck, venison anything your dog has not eated before and was not used in the manufacture of the dry food) One thing I have noticed about my dog is that she can tolerate the things she is allergic too if they are cooked. Edited June 19, 2007 by frufru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Do a search. There are a few threads here on a food called ziwipeak or something?? I have been told that this was the life saver for one or two others in the same postion as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Do a search. There are a few threads here on a food called ziwipeak or something?? I have been told that this was the life saver for one or two others in the same postion as you. Some people on DOL also sell these foods, so just bear that in mind... Glad you've found a better vet. What did they suggest? I'm sorry not to be able to give much advice, other than to say a lot of trial and error will probably be involved. So, she's on BARF now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 My Bob has IBD, and is a great itcher. He has food allergies and environmental allergies. I found the only way to work out what foods upset him was to do an elimination diet. A true elimination diet has one novel protein and one novel carb, so you might use something like duck and let's say millet if your dog has never eaten either of those before. That is all the dog eats for about 8 weeks, nothing else touches his lips. Usually intestinal symptoms will resolve pretty quickly, if you have eliminated the offending food. Skin problems can take much longer, hence the 8 weeks. Of course if the skin problems continue then it may be an environmental allergy such as grass, dust, dust mites, cleaning products, etc, etc, etc. Hill's Z/D is often used as an elimination diet, quite often it does work. The food itself wouldn't have caused weight loss unless your dog refused to eat it. Raw diets are great but bare in mind that a dog with IBD most likely will not be able to cope with the naturally high fat content of a raw diet. Fat is inflammatory to the intestines, especially so if there is an underlying problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi Miriam, I would also suggest to do an elimination diet but stay with the raw food because you can never be sure about what's in the industrial food. Many allergy problems and skin problems are caused by cereal food so I woul recommend not to feed any sort of cereals at all. I would start the diet with a protien source like roo meet combined with a vegetable like carrots. Feed this for 10 weeks and have a look if the problems will get better than you can gradually add nwe things one by one. For the diet time don't feed any treats or anything apart from the diet just to make sure that you exactlt know what your pup eats. I would give any sort of other treatment, no vaccinations, worm or flea treatments because they can heavily increase your problems!!! I had quite few patients with similar problems and with a diet and no "chemical treatment" combined with a classical homoeopathic treatment they became (and still are) very healthy. Very often problems like this are caused by vaccinations and too many other chemical treatments. The immunsystem of the dogs get really confused and overreacts. Cheers, Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi... If you do a search of the health forum for allergies with my user name (zayda_asher) you will get a lot of info on allergies... I have two allergy dogs. Do a search and have a read... you should find lots of useful info! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi, I also have an allergy dog We suspect contact allergy/atopy. We tried the z/d diet and we ruled out food allergies as changing food did not improve his itchiness (I had to increase the amount I fed him as he was losing weight on z/d too - he did like it luckily). He still itches no matter what we do. He also scratches at his ears a lot and today got an aural haematoma so is at the vets for surgery tomorrow He is proving to be a very expensive dog! (OH nearly had a heart attack at the cost). He goes on and off cortisone which I don't like but don't know if I have any other choice. This improves his condition but he does still itch on it, and he tends to lose weight on it as well. All I can say is good luck and hope you figure it out! Let us know how you progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hill's Z/D is often used as an elimination diet, quite often it does work. The food itself wouldn't have caused weight loss unless your dog refused to eat it. Hills Z/D does cause weight loss due to its low protein and fat content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hill's Z/D is often used as an elimination diet, quite often it does work. The food itself wouldn't have caused weight loss unless your dog refused to eat it. Hills Z/D does cause weight loss due to its low protein and fat content. I missed that the first time I read... yes, that is absolutely correct: Z/D is known for causing dogs not to gain weight or to loose a lot of weight. That's why they try not to use it on very young dogs... Its not meant to be a long term food... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bark Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I've also got an allergy dog - food and environmental allergies. It took me approx 6mths to work out what food he could eat without the constant diarrhoea and blood. He didn't get itchy but he got alot of eye gunk. At the time the Vet told me to put him on Royal Canine fish and potatoe whilst being on anti biotics for an inflamed bowel and some pink stuff (peptosol or something) to ease the stomach pain. He was then put on Eukanuba prescription which was ok but I preferred to feed him a natural diet. I then experimented with raw foods, not strictly BARF but my own version of assorted meats/chicken necks and cooked or processed vegetables with supplements and a couple of bones to gnaw on. He's doing well on this diet and everyone says his coat is soooo glossy and soft as silk. Every now an then he'll get diarrhoea from eating something in the dog park or off the street that he shouldn't have eaten - so it's another trip to the vet for anti biotics. Treats are home made biscuits, snow peas or green beans. It does take time to prepare his food but once you get organised and into a routine of making up batches and freezing it - feeding a natural diet becomes very easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tollerjosie Posted June 20, 2007 Author Share Posted June 20, 2007 Thank you all so much for your replies! It's been very helpful to have your inputs! I start working as an obedience instructor in August, and on the course I took to become an instructor we had a weekend about nutrition. I know the basics of nutrition, but when it comes to severe allergies like Josie's, I feel I come up short. I've checked my "papers" of Josie's illnesses and trips to the vet, and I've tried beef as a meatsource and that didn't work too well... So I'm thinking she's allergic to wheat and cereals, in additon to corn and some other vegetables. Until I've visited the vet again I'm keeping her on the raw food diet (not BARF, but something similar - it's a Norwegian produced product), combined with a little bit of rice to fill her tummy up. I'm going to try adding eggs for protein, just have to figure out how much she need of the different things... Since Hill's z/d has such a low protein level, I know that's what caused her to lose wheight ;) When I put her on it, she lost 3 kilos and when I took her off it and put her on the raw food, she gained 2,5 (and counting) kilos. I don't mind spending more time preparing her food since I'm very organized in that department, and if that's what it takes for Josie to have a good life, well, that's what I'll do I'll keep you posted regularly, and when I've been to the new vet I'll give you an update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I missed that the first time I read... yes, that is absolutely correct: Z/D is known for causing dogs not to gain weight or to loose a lot of weight. That's why they try not to use it on very young dogs... Its not meant to be a long term food... Oh ok, couldn't you just feed more then or wouldn't that work? I wonder why they can't up the calories. Always learning something new here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Oh ok, couldn't you just feed more then or wouldn't that work? I wonder why they can't up the calories. Always learning something new here. Because they have to hydrolize everything out of it... basically that means breaking the proteins down as far as possible. A true food allergy is caused by an immune response being mounted against the proteins in food. They can't put anything whole in it or it will potentially make the dog respond (protiens in the amino acids in all parts of food)... so you can't up the calories as that would add proteins to cause a response. The amount you would need to feed would cause most dogs to refuse to eat any more... you could try though, but I doubt it would help much as they would need to eat a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Because they have to hydrolize everything out of it... basically that means breaking the proteins down as far as possible. A true food allergy is caused by an immune response being mounted against the proteins in food. They can't put anything whole in it or it will potentially make the dog respond (protiens in the amino acids in all parts of food)... so you can't up the calories as that would add proteins to cause a response. The amount you would need to feed would cause most dogs to refuse to eat any more... you could try though, but I doubt it would help much as they would need to eat a lot! Thanks. I've never tried it as I didn't like the sound of it and the ingredients, was easier to do a true elimination diet. I didn't realise that it affects the calories so much. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) Thanks. I've never tried it as I didn't like the sound of it and the ingredients, was easier to do a true elimination diet. I didn't realise that it affects the calories so much. Interesting. Not everyone can do an elimination diet with a novel protein and veg... Some have fed too much variety, or just don't understand (its very challenging when you've been taught to think that kibble is good and that you cannot feed your dog yourself)... When we did Zayda's elimination diet (years ago) we used the z/d to supplement her novel protein and veg. These days I'd just go with a novel protein and veg... Some dogs are sensitive enough that they will still react to the z/d ETA: Hills Science Diet aren't the greatest products on the planet... Edited June 21, 2007 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Not everyone can do an elimination diet with a novel protein and veg... Some have fed too much variety, or just don't understand Yes, there is something to be said about not giving a dog everything and anything. I heard of a lady in USA who actually had to use frog legs for her dog's elim diet. She had fed that dog on everything imaginable. I still have a few novel ingredients aside in case Bob develops an intolerance to his current foods. So far he has been stable for 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 If you've established full symptom pattern, the dog is an adult and has true allergies its not that likely for them to keep develping new ones. It does occassionally happen, but is pretty uncommon. However, if you dog has something like IBD it is quite common for them to develop new intolerances (different from a true allergy). True food allergies are actually the most uncommon of the allergies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tollerjosie Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hmm, this has turned into just the discussion I was hoping for! Allthough I don't mind spending time on making Josie's food, I can't help thinking that it'd be nice to have some dry food that she can take. I just heard about an allergy food from Royal Canin, called hypo-allergenic... Has anyone here tried it? Pros? Cons? Anything, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I had fed Diesel fish as part of his regular diet before the elimination diet, and had him on various brands with lamb etc, so there wasn't much choice but to use Z/D. I'd looked into other foods with other protein sources but they all seemed to have chicken fat or something else in it that wouldn't work as an elimination diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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