Pressure Point Collar (aka Prong) Discussion Welcome

[Erny]

As you're most likely by now aware, I am gathering submissions/reports/essays etc. etc. for collating with a view to submitting to Victorian Government to lift the current "ban" on Pressure Point Collars [PPC] (aka "pinch" or "prong" collars) and a shift to "restricted" use. The purpose of this thread is to welcome discussion from those who are pro-PPC as well as from those who are anti-PPC. Yes - it's all been done before but the difference with this thread is that it is likely to be printed off and used as a part of the total submission to government.

So - whether you're "for" or whether you are "against" - it doesn't matter. Just be prepared to be able to back up your thoughts and/or opinions (with sensible reason if not hard core evidence) or at least contribute from and with an educational view.

It doesn't matter who would like to start it off. Whether that be from someone who would like to see legislation (remember - in Victoria it is a total "ban") changed so that the prong may be used, albeit as a "restricted" training tool .... or from someone who is anti-prong and doesn't want to see the legislation changed (but be prepared to say why).

Ok - so I think it's a case of "ready, set and go .................. "

ETA: It goes without saying to refrain from personal attacks regardless of which side of the fence you sit on .

Edited December 28, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

Ok - normally this type of thread would have people clammering to have their say. Perhaps it is that time of night where many are leaving and making their way home from work ............... or maybe some have become shy?

It doesn't matter in this thread if you chose to tell stories of how you've had difficulties using one type of equipment (or even injuries that have occurred as a result) where with the other there has been success.

I will start with my view :-

There are some dogs who sport injury (perhaps by car accident) or genetic fault and are precluded from even the pressure of a flat collar on their throats. The only option for these dogs are equipment such as a harness – which has limited ability/effect as a training tool; or a head-collar.

The head-collar as a “positive” training-aid needs closer scrutiny. They may look ‘kinder’ to the uninitiated, but many dogs have suffered surface abrasions ranging from mild through to serious as a result of their use – even when fitted correctly. There is a very real potential for neck damage as the result of whiplash and as a result, their use is limiting. For many dogs merely the fitting of the head-collar is an aversive, whether being applied or not. This is not the truth for other styles of training equipment, such as the check-chain or pinch-collar. In the latter cases, when not being applied, the dog is comfortable and unimpeded, an essential in the training of dogs, who need to learn both the behaviours we want, as well as those that we do not.

[MonElite]

I was born and brought up in Europe and there were two types of collars worn by the dogs, flat leather collars or prong collars.

I have seen dashies being walked on mini prong collars as its simply a good collar, if a dog needs one.

Europe is a lot more open to dogs, dog training, presence of dogs in cafes, restaurnats, shops etc. Dogs are well controlled and I guess part of the control is due to the type of collars and socialisation dogs receive. Plus most people live in units, hence they ahve a greater need for dogs to be walked daily.

If a dog in a metro Sydney is a large dog and a puller it will most of the time be eventually confined into thte backyard as the owners wont be able to walk it with no effective control. Is it what we want for our "best freinds"- spend their entire live in confides of a suburban backyard, not seeing the world, not being able to see other dogs, paly with kids and just walk with the owner???

A prong collar in many cases will help the owners to control the dog and make the walk enjoyable for all. Why deny people and the dogs of such pleasure....

Edited June 19, 2007 by myszka

[Seita]

Ok seeing as there are no other takers, I'll give it a shot! But first let me say that any training aid can be used to abuse an animal, it depends on the handler and how they use the tool, not the tool itself.

I had never heard of a prong collar until I found Dogzonline, granted I never had need for one either. I had always been taught with a check/choke chain, which I found difficult to use correctly. I tend to use martingale collars instead. But that all changed when I got Astro, a foster German Shepherd cross who pulled like a steam train and probably had never recieved any training in her entire life. I struggled to walk this dog, and I'm not a small person and she wasn't such a big dog (25kg). At first I used a flat collar, no stopping her, I then bought a martingale for her, it worked at first but she quickly work out how to pull through it (now in hindsight I realise that I may have used it incorrectly). I tried a harness next, this she found the best to pull in and I found the hardest to control her in. Then finally I resorted to a check chain, it worked at first but as soon as she got out in front of me the chain would slip and she would keep pulling and despite chocking herself would not stop. If I kept her right at my side with the check chain up nice and high where it should be, she was a dream to handle but this is not always possible. So in my desperation I ordered a prong collar... and it was like magic, within one session in our yard she was working on a loose lead. So off to go for a walk to try it out. She was fantastic, she did attempt to pull but a gentle pop on the leash when she got to the end and she would back right off. When it first arrived in the mail, I strapped it around my arm to test it out, you feel pressure when you pull on it but because it's a martingale collar aswell it can only tighten so far so the dog will never choke in it. I would definitely use a prong again if I had a dog which I felt would benefit from using it.

I see that myszka beat me!

[sas]

I also never had a prong collar until I had spent some time on DOL.

I had taken on an 18 month old 70kg Great Dane. I noticed a wee bit of dog-agro, but didn't see it as a major issue......yeah well, it wasn't a wee bit of dog argo, it was fear aggression and full on.

I met with Steve who assessed my dog and worked him on different collars. Steve was able to handle him on a Martingale, however at the time I was only about 50kg's and I wasn't able to handle him on a martingale so we stepped it up to a prong.

I felt incontrol of him, I wasn't being nervious and passing that onto him. Steve also taught him heel within 15 minutes. He didn't hurt him, the prong didn't hurt him. Without the prong the dog wouldn't have been allowed out of the backyard as I simply could not control him, the prong allowed us to 'safely' start working with him and his fear.

What I like about the prong is that the dog makes its' own decision - will it pull / lunge? If it does it will recieve a correction without the handler actually issuing that correction and there is no harm done to the dog.

Cons with the prong collar: It's a link collar so you should attach it to a loose martingale. I have had a prong come undone on me before (but that's because it wasn't done up correctly).

Another con is that it is frowned upon so being in public with it wasn't a great thing and I would cover it so I didn't have to deal with uneducated comments.

Since then I have used a prong on a number of different dogs who didn't respond to a flat collar or martingale, still all very happy dogs, no harm caused what-so-ever.

Pros: Gentle, I gave corrections with one finger when needed.

Edited June 19, 2007 by sas

[Tapferhund]

Erny,

Maybe things have changed in recent years but it was my understanding that ,under Vet advice, prong collars CAN be used for dogs with medical conditions, ie spinal injuries etc , because these collars are the safest to use.

I am all for the prong collar and would like to see all restrictions dropped in their use.

Somewhere I have a letter by the late Dr.Alex Hauler , who was very much in favour of prong collars. If I can find it I will post it here for you.

[Kelpie-i]

Here's my contribution...

Approx 4 years ago I had a client who wanted to attend training classes with her black labrador. The main issue was that her dog pulled severely on the lead. This wasn't her only problem.... The lady suffered severe back problems and arthritis in one of her wrists so walking the dog was a nightmare each time, so she stopped walking the dog for a while. She purchased a Halti as advised to her by someone only to have the dog roll on the ground with his full weight each time she put it on. She advised that she tried the Halti for a couple of months and whilst the dog was beginning to get used to it, he still managed to pull and had also attained the new behaviour of rolling over on the ground each time she put it on. At one stage, the dog took her with him in one of his rolls which caused her to become bed-bound for a week with her back problem.

She came to me in desperation as her husband didn't like the dog to start with and if she didn't take the dog out for regular exercise, it would become destructive due to frustration and boredom which would make him scream and hit the dog. After consultation with her I recommended a prong collar. Initially she wasn't sure about it as the look of it certainly scared her, but after a week of deliberation, she decided to give it a go. Almost instantaneously the dog stopped pulling and the lady was able to calmly walk the dog AND attend training classes each week which she thoroughly enjoyed. She even told me that her husband was beginning to like the dog more these days.

Not so long after, the Govt announced the ban on prong collars and I advised her that she would no longer be able to use one due to the new legislation. I told her of the implications if she was caught using one which shocked her. Her very words were..."Well if I can't use one, then I just simply cannot walk him anymore as he will revert back to the way he was". She attempted to use a correction chain in the following weeks but the dog went back to his old habits and she just didn't have the strength to control him.

That was the last I saw of her and the dog I contacted her about 3 weeks after she stopped attending classes and she told me that the dog was not being walked (she just physically couldn't) and that she was contemplating giving the dog away. Unfortunately, I do not know the outcome of the situation. I can only hope that she has rehomed the dog to someone who was more physically capable of controlling him.

This is but one of my prong collar stories, however this one was probably the most saddening of them all as this lady's ability to walk her dog was taken away from her by legislation gone mad.

[Janba]

I have never had to use a prong collar on any of my dogs, but have been taught to fit one correctly and have had one demonstrated on my arm. I have to admit that it hurt a lot less than a check chain.

The objection I have to them is people using them incorrectly. I saw a person 'hang' a dog by one years ago and that was cruel. I also believe the same is applicable to an incorrectly used check chain and head halter.

[Kavik]

I first heard about prong collars when doing the National Dog Trainers Federation course. The look of them shocked me at first and I couldn't see when you would need to use one. But I then tried one on myself, and compared it to a check chain, and the prong collar not only had a different effect, it didn't sting like a check chain did.

I am a small person. I have used most types of collars/head collars on dogs that I have owned or walked for others. Most I can control on a martingale or check chain. However, I have found prong collars very handy when dealing with large, strong or headstrong dogs, as you do not need to use a large correction to stop a dog pulling. Especially handy when the dog weighs more than you and is totally untrained! This makes walking or training a much more enjoyable experience and you do not have to worry about the dog pulling you off your feet or getting out of control.

I have received a good deal of abuse from people while walking a dog on a prong collar, due to the misconceptions surrounding their use and their appearance, and so I am careful with where I choose to use one. I now cover them if I use one so I don't get these comments.

[Sne]

Like others I'd never heard of a prong collar until DOL. For my current two dogs I have had no real need to use one - for walking one has consistently been an excellent walker, and the other responded very positively to the check chain.

However my old lab (now deceased) would I think have gained a lot from the correct use of a prong collar. We had previously used check chain (without training on it, and therefore no results) amongst other aids for walking such as a head-halter...also used without advice - much to my shame now. Perhaps with the knowledge I have know his walking might have improved without a prong, but if i'd taken time to learn how to use one I think it would have been a life saver. Due to his poor social walking, he missed out on many a walk. Whilst I have no experience in their use, I'd like to think that under proper advice they would be available to me in the right situation.

I try to keep an open mind about most training methods, provided the people using them know what they're doing. I think prong collars have their place in the dog training society.

[Erny]

All good contributions guys - these are the sorts of things I actually need emailed to me (refer Prong Collars - Submission to change Victorian Legislation thread.

This thread is mainly for those who wish to "lash it out" (for want of better words - even though they might be appropriate ones ). It is a thread for people such as Andy, who actually did post in the aforementioned thread, but that wasn't what THAT thread was for.

This thread is for people who don't agree with the prong and who would like to say why, provided they are prepared to enter conversation with those who do agree with prongs (and who would also like to say why).

So - for those who posted a story/contribution that would do well as part of the actual submission to government, would you mind sending it to me at my email address [email protected] Thanks.

[Tilly]

I use a prong collar on my 60kg high prey drive GSD and I think it is fantastic.

From 6 months of age my GSD was a complete handful. I had dislocated collarbones, broken wrists, broken fingers and various other injuries from trying to walk him in flat collars, check chains, halti's and any other style of collar I could find. It got to the stage where I wouldn't walk him in public at all because he was too difficult to control (not that he was always difficult but when he was I had no control over him at all). Flat collars and check chains would leave him gasping for breath and my arm feeling like it had been ripped out of the socket. He had broken many tie out cables, collars and harnesses/halti's during his puppy years - items which were rated for dogs twice his size (he is very strong).

From day one of using the prong collar I had complete control. He actually became a pleasure to walk and when he became difficult I could quickly and easierly bring him back under control.

The only problem I have found with the prong collar was that it excluded us from many training clubs. Apart from that I would highly recommend the collar for a strong willed dog - with suitable instructions on use (of course).

[Erny]

Tilly - excellent report. Would you mind sending it to me via email at the address given in my post above yours? Thanks

[Rom]

The head-collar as a “positive” training-aid needs closer scrutiny. They may look ‘kinder’ to the uninitiated, but many dogs have suffered surface abrasions ranging from mild through to serious as a result of their use – even when fitted correctly. There is a very real potential for neck damage as the result of whiplash and as a result, their use is limiting. For many dogs merely the fitting of the head-collar is an aversive, whether being applied or not. This is not the truth for other styles of training equipment, such as the check-chain or pinch-collar. In the latter cases, when not being applied, the dog is comfortable and unimpeded, an essential in the training of dogs, who need to learn both the behaviours we want, as well as those that we do not.

I'm still learning lots and my opinions are changing in some areas. While I'm becoming more accepting of the fact that head collars do have a place in the training/management of some dogs, and for the benefit of some handlers, I still reserve some concerns about them for the following reasons and stick by my personal choice of the prong in my own situation:

1. After watching how the dog is effectively led/directed/controlled by the chin I did the following exercise on myself. I don't recommend that anyone do it mind you....

In a standing position, I did some shoulder shrugs and head rolling to make sure I was relaxed. I then placed two fingers on the side of my chin and 'flicked' my head to the side so that I ended up looking over my left shoulder. I heard crunches, grinds and cracks in my neck. I also developed a dull ache in the lower cervical vertebrae area. Now, I was completely prepared for this action, focused on what was about to happen and knew what was coming up. Dogs in Haltis/Gentle leaders are rarely as prepared for such an action. However the movement that the dog is subjected to is more of a compound angle in that it is both to the side and up.

2. The next is a hypothetical situation but I'm sure that it is one that we can all relate to.

Our action movie hero is stuck behind enemy lines without weapons. There is an armed sentry blocking his escape route to freedom. Under the cover of darkness our hero sneaks up behind the sentry and reaches over the sentries shoulder grabs him by the chin and in one smooth action twists his head to the side and up. In this way our hero effectively neutralises and disarms the sentry.

I agree that we don't see dogs that wear halties/gentle leaders suffering from broken necks nor immediate symptoms that they have sustained injury. However with the above in mind, I feel that injury may be much more likely than many supporters or users of these tools may know of and or accept. My fear/reservation pertains mainly to the effect that these sorts of stressors on the cervical vertebrae and soft tissues in the neck can have over time.

Also, in my time as an animal husbandry student at Gatton Ag College. I participated in a practical session in which bull calves of approx 3-400kgs weight were being castrated. The lecturer who weighed somewhere btn 90-100kgs was able to single handedly put these calves on the ground using the a similar movement. Standing on the left of the calf he reached over and grabbed the calfs right ear, held the calfs lower jaw with his other hand, twisted its head to the side and up, and simply walked backwards to lay the calf down. Given the difference in size and body mass of the dog in comparison to handlers, I feel that this action/movement of the neck is dangerous overkill.

3. This point is in regards to the principles of leverage which I believe is the main principle that allows the halti/gentle leader to give some handlers control of some dogs. This is from high school maths, so its a bit rusty.

A lever allows you to apply more force with less effort. There are four parts to a lever. The lever itself, the fulcrum, the load and the effort. In regards to a dog on lead wearing a halti/gentle leader the lead would be the lever, the dog would be the load, and the handler supplies the effort. The fulrum bears the force of both the load and the effort, but the question is in this scenario, where is the fulcrum?

Some might argue that the fulcrum is the point at which the lead connects to the halti/gentle leader and there is some evidence to support this. But there are many classes and styles of levers. Some levers have bends and/or articulating joins in them to help facilitate movement or increase force/decrease effort. With this in mind, my contention and fear is that the fulcrum is at the next possible point of movement which is the dogs neck....bearing the force of both the effort and the load.

The next thing to consider is that the longer the lever handle, the more force you can apply with less effort. So as Susan Clothier states in her articles smaller dogs may be at more risk of injury simply because there is more lead length between the handlers hand and the lead connection to the halti/gl.

4. When the subject of haltis/Gentle leaders come up in regards to the mention of possible injury, some will state that the Veterinarians who designed and market them have studied injuries suspected to have been caused by them and could draw no definitive conclusion that the injuries were indeed caused by the halti/gl. To my mind this can only be classed as opinion even though it is somewhat educated. Even if we could remove the fact that said veterinarians had a financial interest in the outcome of this opinion, to my knowledge, there is no information as to how the study was conducted. What were used as controls and blinds in comparison? To me the statement of these veterinarians leaves more questions to ask than what they managed to answer.

Having said all of the above, I will still consider the halti/gentle leader as an appropriate tool under the right circumstances. But I'll only ever use it or suggest its use with all of the above firmly in mind. Unless of course, somebody out there more knowledgable than me would like to contribute to my education

ETA: And I believe the prong is still the best option for my dog since she has suffered a spinal injury that she continued to aggravate on other collars.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Rom

[Erny]

Rom - I agree with the contents of your well written post. I have often pointed out that whilst a dog on a standard collar (ie one that simply goes around the neck) may walk on a long lead in reasonable safety, those on a head-collar should not be given as much freedom. Otherwise a dog who suddenly decides to forge/lunge ahead runs a high risk of suddenly checking at the end of the lead, the momentum of which results in a quick snap with upward turn of the head.

Of the DVD's supplied by the manufacturers of the head-collars that I have seen, the dogs are generally demonstrated as walking next to their owners. I like to be able to give a dog the freedom to sniff and explore the environment within the proximity of a lead when I go out for a casual walk.

The other thing I like about the prong-collar is that I tend to adjust it so the prongs cause the link to span the trachea, therefore alleviating any pressure to this area when a correction is applied.

I have also experimented on myself as to the different sensations of the head-collar, flat collar and prong collar. My experiment for the head-collar were similar, if not the same, as yours Rom. And I find the sensation of a pinch of the skin renders me more responsive than a check on the chain or a flat collar, and yet the discomfort of the "pinch" is short-lived compared with that which acts on the neck muscle. I presume our pain receptors in the upper skin level is more sensitive than those in our muscles and would on this basis conclude this to be the reason why a lesser correction is required to effect a maximum response.

[Jeff Jones]

Ok - normally this type of thread would have people clammering to have their say. Perhaps it is that time of night where many are leaving and making their way home from work ............... or maybe some have become shy?

Nobody wants to walk into the lions den. :p

I think Andy’s still looking for factual information

[Poodle wrangler]

If prongs are more widely used in Europe, can you find out more about the legislation over there?

Has anything changed recently? I thought the EU was strict on dog welfare issues e.g. no docking (NB not saying prongs or docking are cruel, but some have that perception).

Could save you reinventing the wheel?

[leopuppy04]

Maybe things have changed in recent years but it was my understanding that ,under Vet advice, prong collars CAN be used for dogs with medical conditions, ie spinal injuries etc , because these collars are the safest to use.

I was under this impression too.

I've only read the OP - so I don't know where this is up to - but here are my views.

As most of you know - I prefer not to use 'corrective' tools on my dogs ie: prongs, e collars and correction chains.

BUT I do recognise that in the world of dog training each tool has their place and I don't think that the prong collars should be banned. If you get a response from a dog (again, because of the 'bans' in Vic I have not used one so my thoughts may be a little rusty) in 1/2 the time using a prong than you would a correction chain - IMO it is better for the dog than longer, harsher, drawn out corrections. Of course, i'm not saying that you should correct the dog into the next universe, but i've seen many dogs who in fact need IMO far too many corrections on a check chain.

I think that they should be brought in but ONLY IF they were available through trained professionals who could offer continuing training and advice, not only for the dogs training, but for the use of the tool aslo. But then, I hold this for most tools - halters, check chains and prongs. I would definately NOT want to see them for sale over the internet or anywhere easily accessible by people who don't know what they are doing.

Just my thoughts

[Erny]

Erny,

Maybe things have changed in recent years but it was my understanding that ,under Vet advice, prong collars CAN be used for dogs with medical conditions, ie spinal injuries etc , because these collars are the safest to use.

This is not my understanding. I know that e-collars may be used in the "restricted" sense (ie with Vet permission AND under the supervision of a qualified trainer) but understand the prong-collar is simply "banned" from use.

From the "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations Act 1997"

"7D. Use of pronged collars prohibited

A person must not use a pronged collar on any animal.

Penalty: 5 penalty units

7E. Use of certain electronic collars prohibited

(1) A person must not use an electronic dog training collar that can impart an electric shock on a dog or any other animal except in the circumstances in sub-regulation (2).

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

(2) Sub-regulation (1) does not apply to a person who uses an electronic dog training collar on a dog -

(a) if a veterinary practitioner has examined the physical health and temperament of the dog and reasonably believes that the dog is suitable to have an electronic dog training collar used on it; AND (my highlight of the word "and")

(b) the person is -

(i) a veterinary practitioner; or

(ii) acting on the instructions of a veterinary practitioner; or

(iii) a qualified dog trainer (within the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996); or

(iv) acting under the supervision of a qualified dog trainer (within the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996)."

Unless there has been a further change in the legislation that I am not aware of, I believe the above to be the current status.

[Erny]

Ok - normally this type of thread would have people clammering to have their say. Perhaps it is that time of night where many are leaving and making their way home from work ............... or maybe some have become shy?

Nobody wants to walk into the lions den. :p

I think Andy’s still looking for factual information

Seems no-one is opposed to the proper and appropriate use of the prong collar.