Pressure Point Collar (aka Prong) Discussion Welcome

[Just Midol]

Deleted.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Akitaowner]

is it too late? i hope not - i forgot all about it and i hate letting people down...

I have 2 large breed dogs - Akitas, both very happy and friendly however being large they have tended to pull a little on the leads not so much i couldnt control them but with my boy - whos an entire male stud he wanted to stop at every tree and would always walk with a tight lead just pulling enough for it to be annoying - but not too annoying as i put up with it for about 18 months!

After consultation with a behaviouralist, i was advised to try one. he showed me how they work and why they are so effective. It not about hurting the dog or being more powerful its simply a tool that enables the dog to know when it is doing something wrong. The majority of training relies on the handler having precision timing for corrections or rewards, however the design of the prong mean the handler does very little and dog will correct itself - the handler really only needs to reward and praise when thing are going well!!

Dog training is a good balance between rewarding good/desirable behaviour and making the bad/undesirable behaviour less comfortable - which the prong is perfect for. Used in the correct way it will never hurt a dog but just make them feel uncomfortable when they are doing something wrong.

So what happened after my consultation....

i now have a dog that will walk beautifully on a loose leash he will still stop to pee but he knows that he only has the length of the leash before he has to start moving again. He very rarely gets corrected now. I have also used it to train out a couple of other unwanted behaviours. It gives me more confidence in handling a big dog wihtout having to 'overpower' him - coz im fairly sure he would win that battle!!!

My girl was about 4 months old when i got the prong for my boy, but i thought it would be great to prevent her from developing the same bad habits he has so she was trained with it and has never pulled on the lead since.

I have seen these tools used with by professional trainers and personally would not use anything else now.

Regards

Edited January 30, 2008 by Akitaowner

[Erny]

No - not too late Akita Owner.

Thanks. Nice story.

[Cosmolo]

Was my submission okay?

[Erny]

Was my submission okay?

I have it printed Cosmolo ..... to read through. Sorry - I have been sending myself crazy trying to add references, citations, hyperlinks and cross-referencing into the 20 page "main" submission. Have spent hours on it today and no where near finishing.

PS - just read your submission through properly now. Very good submission - thank you .

[Griffo]

did you get mine erny?

[Erny]

did you get mine erny?

Don't think so Rachelle ..... I'm going to reply off the 'other' thread - this one is the one I will be using to print out and include as part of the submission to government and I'd like to keep it to discussions pertaining to the PPCollar rather than anecdotal stuff.

[ninaandted]

erny - mine's late too - sorry! hope it's okay - I kept trying to get it right - there is so much to say it could be a really, really long story!!

We have two medium dogs and after attending a group training session with a dog behaviourist/trainer, we witnessed the use of the pressure point collar with one of our dogs and were amazed at the transformation.

We subsequently worked with this trainer with both of our dogs as both pulled on the leads in differing manners, one in particular due to an anxiety behaviour brought on by a variety of factors, many of which were beyond our control. This behaviour was apparent in the way she pulled on the lead, as well as other health issues she had. It was imperative for her health that this behaviour and her anxiety be aleviated.

Additionally, it was, of course, an issue walking two dogs simultanously, when they both pull, if their combined weight is more than that of the walker! I was also concerned, as I was pregnant at that time, that if I continued to find walking both of them so difficult, that I would eventually have to give up walking them and that they would ultimately suffer.

I was initially reluctant, or rather, sceptical, that this kind of collar would make a difference, or not cause any harm to my dogs, however, after being fully trained in their use and educated about they way they work I understood how they actually cause less harm than many of the other collars I was refered to for my dogs. During the time prior to working with the pressure point collar I was referred to a number of collars and at one training session forced to use a check chain collar. I can attest that each and every one of these collars was both ineffective in assisting me in training my dogs not to pull and in some cases caused further anxiety for my dog.

Using the pressure point collar I found it easier to play my part in the training, it requires no force to use on the dog, it is not about "yanking", which is particularly useful for a fairly small woman. It is a much clearer and quicker communication tool and with timing in training particularly important to help a dog understand what you are trying to achieve, I found this very useful. Both dogs have taken enthusiastically to this training and welcome the collar going on.

The end result of the training is that I have two dogs that I can walk together comfortably and with my baby's pram - something I would never have thought possible before using this collar. Combined with the techniques and exercises we were taught by the trainer and the collar, we have been able to reduce my dog's anxiety and improve her overall health and weight gain, as well as assist her with a number of her anxious behaviours when we went out on walks, but I would have to emphasise that I do not believe that we would have achieved the same result with another collar. As mentioned previously, we had been referred, and worked with trainers, with a number of other collars, which either had no effect or in some cases increased my dog's anxiety. The use of this collar and the work we have been able to do with them with it, has improved the quality of life of both of my dogs, because they can comfortably be taken on walks, but in particular is has assisted my dog with her anxiety.

[Erny]

Great stories, guys!

Don't forget that you can submit your stories to me by email to :

[email protected]

Individual submissions will weigh more than the stories given in this thread, IMO. Although this thread was designed so that people - whether for or against the Pressure Point Collar (PPCollar) (aka "pinch" or "prong" collar) could enter general discussion about it, stories are still welcome here, if that's what people prefer.

ETA: They are not too late. Christmas caused a delay, as did getting some information from some formal sources. Not to mention the extra things that have been identified along the way, adding to an even more "full" main submission than I thought.

Your individual submissions go a long way to bolstering the "main" submission, so please keep them coming to the email address above, if you will.

I will post back here once the submission is wrapped up and ready to go, so keep writing until then .

Edited February 2, 2008 by Erny

[Tatelina]

There are some dogs who sport injury (perhaps by car accident) or genetic fault and are precluded from even the pressure of a flat collar on their throats. The only option for these dogs are equipment such as a harness – which has limited ability/effect as a training tool; or a head-collar.

I am against them for so many reasons.

You say some dogs are precluded from the pressure of a flat collar on their throats, and you're hoping for a lift of the ban so that atleast restricted use is allowed.... How will it be known that a dog is actually as you say 'precluded from the pressure of a flat collar' or the owner just doesn't have the patience to train without a collar in the security of their own backyard?

I am definetly against them.

It's an unnecessary training aid used as an easier option.

Note: Term training aid used loosely.

[Tatelina]

Was my submission okay?

I have it printed Cosmolo ..... to read through. Sorry - I have been sending myself crazy trying to add references, citations, hyperlinks and cross-referencing into the 20 page "main" submission. Have spent hours on it today and no where near finishing.

PS - just read your submission through properly now. Very good submission - thank you ;).

Are you just putting the the comments for?

[Erny]

You say some dogs are precluded from the pressure of a flat collar on their throats, and you're hoping for a lift of the ban so that atleast restricted use is allowed.... How will it be known that a dog is actually as you say 'precluded from the pressure of a flat collar' or the owner just doesn't have the patience to train without a collar in the security of their own backyard?

Thanks for posting Tatelina but I'm a bit confused by your question. Are you asking "how will it be known that the owner would use the PPCollar instead of the flat collar" ??

Generally speaking, if an owner seeks to find a better way for their dog - why would they then refuse to employ the better way, if it proves to be in their own dog's best interests?

I am definetly against them.

It's an unnecessary training aid used as an easier option.

You've said you don't like the PPCollar - would you mind expanding on your reasoning for this point of view?

How do you think these things work? (ie how are they applied?) Do you only see it as an "easier option" for the handler? Why don't you identify it as an easier option for the dog? And what of the dogs that without, might otherwise face a lesser dog friendly technique? And I ask that you define "dog friendly" as not as YOU might see it, but how you think the dog might see it.

Note: Term training aid used loosely.

Why? It does aid in achieving training.

What do you regard as a training aid?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

Are you just putting the the comments for?

Sorry, but I cannot make any sense out of your question. Would you mind clarifying your question please.

[haven]

I *think* what they're getting at is are you only including arguments in favour of the pressure point collar in the submission

[Erny]

Oh - thanks Haven.

No, this thread welcomes posts by those who are opposed to the PPCollar as well. The original post does say ....

The purpose of this thread is to welcome discussion from those who are pro-PPC as well as from those who are anti-PPC. ,,,

So - whether you're "for" or whether you are "against" - it doesn't matter. Just be prepared to be able to back up your thoughts and/or opinions (with sensible reason if not hard core evidence) or at least contribute from and with an educational view.

ETA: It goes without saying to refrain from personal attacks regardless of which side of the fence you sit on .

Sorry if I couldn't grasp the purpose of your question, Tatelina.

Would you mind explaining further by way of factual reasoning why you're against the proper use of a PPCollar?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

Sorry, but ............................... *bump*

Edited April 1, 2008 by Erny

[rocco]

I am for this training tool. I have far more control over my boy now that I have discovered the pinch collar. Had a few issues with off lead and on-lead dogs trying to attack Roc and he is the sort of dog that will take on a challenge. I had been using a check chain and when we saw a dog I would stop him, hook the check up under his chin, hold a tight hold over him as we walked by, I knew all I was doing was sending all my nervous energy down the lead to him and over time I gave him more issues.

We got introduced to the prong and our first walk I felt so much nervous tension leave me. Had far more control over Roc and it wasn't the control of me putting tension on his check, but a small correction with the pinch and he walks straight by other dogs, even the ones going nuts on their leads at him. He knows what is expected of him and it is far more comfy then a check choking him.

I have to say I am disappointed I cannot use them at my obedience school. I do our obedience practice at home in it and he responds far better to a command then a treat.

But a definite great tool.

[Erny]

A *bump* to level this thread with its explanatory 'mate'.

[cwm]

I have to say that I had never really heard of a Prong collar until DOL forums, and my drive training workshop at K9Force, but when I did hear of them I just thought..brilliant. My girl has been the most exuberant one that we've had to date - and all my previous trainers said, "Oh, you'll have to put her on a halti or gentle leader" - and seeing how my puppy reacted on walks I couldn't have disagreed more and point blank refused because my puppy would leap and cavort to such an extent I swear she would have done herself so much damage.

I have been using a 'harmony harness' which has been perfect for her, but had that not been a great solution for, her, my next thought was the prong - provided I could get a private session with K9Force to use it! I think if I'd known about one earlier, I would have just gotten straight on to one to avoid any further issue.

The thing that really bugs me is when people say that haltis etc have been used on horses for years. What the???? A halti or gentle leader is so different to a halter it's not funny!

A halter noseband does not even come close to sitting or interfering with the horse's eyes - and that is another thing I don't like about the Haltis...

But sorry...gone from Prong argument to anti Halti

[Erny]

CWN - thank you for your contribution to this thread.

In all fairness though, I would like to point out to readers that the "Halti" is a brand name of head collar, rather than a generic name. I don't think "Halti" should be denounced, but rather, if there have been unpleasant experiences with them that people would like to draw reference to, "Head Collar" or "Head Halter" should be the choice of words, unless of course the subject is intended to be hyper-specific. Each different brand name of head-collar comes with advantages and disadvantages over the other, depending on the dog (shape, size, circumstance) to which it is fitted. But each is used with the same principal in mind - consequently general problems which can be associated with the use of a head collar should not be specifically associated to a specific brand name in isolation.

I write this only to be fair on the manufacturers of each brand name and style of head-collar.

It is a common error that we make, CWN, as we do tend to refer to a head-collar by brand name when we ourselves have associated our experiences to that particular brand, so I trust you'll forgive me for raising this awareness. You're not alone in this error, to be sure.

I completely agree with you in relation to the referenced comparison of "Head Collars" to dogs as "Head Halters" to horses. Each animal is so vastly different not only in terms of anatomic structure, but also in terms of psychology, it is, IMO a very silly analogy to make and is fraught with problems that can be a detriment to the dogs we use this style of equipment on.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Erny