Pressure Point Collar (aka Prong) Discussion Welcome

[Cazz]

I'm enjoying finding out more about all collars.

From descriptions of wearing the prong, it seems you could transfer the training quite easily to a flat collar or a nylon martingale. Check chains are seeming more and more inhumane.

I have had halti's, Sam destroyed the 'Black Dog' one, after that, I only even made him wear one for show, to pacify the odd train driver who told me to muzzle him, or we couldn't get on the train.

Katrina, it's not just the ban on useful tools, it's the allowing cruel and inhumane collars to be used instead.

[Erny]

Katrina, it's not just the ban on useful tools, it's the allowing cruel and inhumane collars to be used instead.

Cazz .... I'm a bit careful about labelling check chains "cruel and inhumane" .....

Used carefully and properly, they don't need to be and I have been able to train many a dog successfully and happily using that tool. It's just that the prong collar has advantages over the check chain in that its application more reliably avoids the physical damage that a check chain CAN cause.

And in fairness - if training methods are successful you can wean off from a (eg) check to a flat just as you can from a (eg) prong-collar to a flat.

[Erny]

It think it worthy to mention that it was also due to the unfortunate mis-use of the tool ie. sharpening of tips etc by moronic idiots which assisted in bringing on it's ban.

Thinking on this, Kelpie-i (took me a while )

I've heard the same thing and I thought that when I obtained the docs/submissions/reports that were made to support the current Victorian legislation going through (ie to ban the use of the prong) that this "mis-use" by tampering would have come up. But ..... nothing. In fact, there is nothing at all from any of the "key organisations" who were elected as consultants and who supported the "use-ban" legislation in amongst the docs I have obtained to evidence their reason for that support.

Is there anything documented where this has actually occurred? ..... I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't one of those urban myths that someone dreamt up as a possibility but then threw it in the ring as an "anti-prong" lobbiest and Chinese Whispers took care of it from there.

[Rom]

I've heard the same thing and I thought that when I obtained the docs/submissions/reports that were made to support the current Victorian legislation going through (ie to ban the use of the prong) that this "mis-use" by tampering would have come up. But ..... nothing. In fact, there is nothing at all from any of the "key organisations" who were elected as consultants and who supported the "use-ban" legislation in amongst the docs I have obtained to evidence their reason for that support.

Is there anything documented where this has actually occurred? ..... I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't one of those urban myths that someone dreamt up as a possibility but then threw it in the ring as an "anti-prong" lobbiest and Chinese Whispers took care of it from there.

Am doing a bit of searching and this is all I've come up with so far:

Here

This is from a data base of almost 12000 cruelty cases.

Will search with more key words

ETA: The above is not an abuse in the training sense....just that it was left on until the skin started growing over it.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Rom

[Rom]

Ooooh! Here's an interesting find:

An Unnecessary And Preventable Euthanasia.

SS asked me to look at a dog the other day. Simon, who came from a local animal shelter because he was way too much for their volunteers and potential adopters to handle and therefore was going to be euthanized, is your typical big, dumb dog. Perhaps I should rephrase that...he is your typical, big, dumb dog that hasn't been trained or taught any decent manners. He is hyper, mouthy, and obnoxious. Yuck. Who would want a dog like this?

The dog had failed our temperament test because it was constantly jumping up on us (not in a good way) and putting his mouth on us. SS wanted to get my opinion. Did I think we should work with him to see if this totally unpleasant behavior could be modified or was it too little too late? I didn't see anything terribly dangerous in the dog, but I did see what the trainers had seen and again thought yuck.

But then SS said, let me put a prong collar on him, work him and see what happens. A PRONG COLLAR!! A collar with prongs? How can a humane society that is dedicated to preventing the cruelty to animals suggest such a thing????? Very easily. Here at the East Bay SPCA, we do what is right for each dog, not what is 'politically correct' for all dogs. Every dog is different and we work with each one in a way to address his or her individual issues. "Never" is in not in our vocabulary. Although positive reinforcement has been proven to be most successful at changing behavior long term, from time to time, it isn't enough.

She brought Simon to me two days later and he was a different dog. Obedient, mannered and on the right track. Only time will tell if he'll make it into our adoption program, but I could not be more proud of SS because she looked past the stereotypes and training peer pressure and did what was right for that dog. I think the ultimate cruelty is not a prong collar, but an unnecessary and preventable euthanasia.

From:

An SPCA

[4leggedvariety]

I have used prong collars before on my lab & cocker and found them to be of great benefit. They are supposed to be used with very gentle hands, slight turn of wrist is all that is required. However you can also deliver a massive correction if it is used like a check chain. It is usually not the equipment that is the subject of controversy, but the manner it is used, depending on what you are trying to achieve. Is a bit like the gun issue, if it falls in the wrong hands, it can do a lot of harm. Why can't people use a piece of equipment properly the way it is intended to be? people are the culprits.

[Erny]

A *bump* to keep this thread close by with the other one I'm running.

Deadline for anyone wishing to contribute in this thread is coming up. Note that the invitation to express your opinion even if it is AGAINST the use of prong-collars (but please be prepared to back it up with evidence and/or sound reasoning) still stands, but time for you to do so is now limited.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Erny

[Cazz]

I think the regulations should state how pointy is 'pointed'. Even a pin doesn't end in a point, it just gets very thin before the curved end of it.

They shouldn't have perfectly flat ends without the sides being sanded or whatever, because a sharp corner can be dangerous too.

These ideas should be put in place of banning the collar, the collar's not a bad thing, it's quite an effective training tool if used properly. Train the people who want to use it, so they'll be less likely to abuse it. Then, if they insist on misusing it, the police can be called in. Don't stop everyone from using this tool because of a few nuts who abuse it.

[Erny]

Cazz - any modification of the prong-collar of that nature with intent to harm would be an act of cruelty. As would any modification of similar nature to ANY style of dog equipment (training, restraining or otherwise). The change to legislation that is sought is from "ban of use" to "permitted use with restrictions" .... the restriction essentially comprising of its use being under the supervision and instruction of a qualified trainer .....

Edited November 2, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

Don't stop everyone from using this tool because of a few nuts who abuse it.

There are more than just a few people out there who mis-use and abuse (innocently or otherwise) other freely available training tools to the detriment of the dogs they are used on (example only : head-collars) ..... yet the highlight for their banned use has never been suggested.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Erny

[Cazz]

Maybe. I think they should impose restrictions on the places who sell them too. They may get perfectly safe prong collars, but there may be a disgruntled employee or something who'll 'adjust' the collar and sell it to someone, which gets the dog owner in trouble.

Exactly! Educate on the proper use, don't ban training aids without actually looking at the thing and it's uses.

[Erny]

I think they should impose restrictions on the places who sell them too. They may get perfectly safe prong collars, but there may be a disgruntled employee or something who'll 'adjust' the collar and sell it to someone, which gets the dog owner in trouble.

You need a permit to be able to import them. Even when they were permitted to be used here in Victoria, it is not as if they were generally available via your local pet store. I presume this is because they were too expensive coupled with the fact that they look awful to the many who don't understand how they work and the benefits. I therefore expect 'turnover' too slow for the average pet shop to hold them in stock, to be worthwhile.

I have high doubts on the effort a 'disgruntled employee' would go to that would be required to 'modify' a prong collar.

I don't think the other States in Australia have any problems, Cazz and even before the ban in Victoria, the main people who sold them were trainers/training organisations to my knowledge.

[Rom]

It think it worthy to mention that it was also due to the unfortunate mis-use of the tool ie. sharpening of tips etc by moronic idiots which assisted in bringing on it's ban.

I've done a bit of gooogling and haven't been able to come up with any examples of stories of the above....has anyone got any links?

I am in touch with Dr. Fedderson-Peterson in Germany about this study on the usage of prong collars and hope to get her publication and the latest data soon.

I'd love to read this stuff too if its available yet?

[Nekhbet]

for sharpened collars - its a hell of a lot easier to bang some nails into a leather collar to point inward. Seen that before and its horrific.

Prongs should be under trainer instruction ONLY. I would NEVER have them sold through stores, only through dog clubs and government registered and accredited trainers. Actually check chains should be the same but hey I can dream. The abuse I have seen with correction chains and halters give me a prong for a lunging dog any day.

[Erny]

Nekhbet .... your above post - my thoughts exactly.

And like Rom, I've tried to find documented reports regarding tampering of prong-collars but with no luck. Chinese whispers? To suit someone's claim and support the current Victorian ban?

And as for pet stores selling training equipment - yep, I agree .... people need more than just the equipment. They need to know how to use them.

Without advocating sale of prong-collars in pet stores though .... if it were a choice of prong-collars or check chains and/or headcollars, IMO and generally speaking, prong collars would be the safest out of the lot to be sold in pet-stores, rather than the other two.

But as I said - prefer all of them come via a training organisation/person so that people can be suitably advised.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Erny

[Xaube]

Erny,

About six years ago I attended Obedience training with my four months old German Shepherd who pulled continually whilst I walked her. I am a small person with not much strength in my arms so I decided to attended private training lessons with a well know trainer in my area.

He observed me with my girl (who was on a slip chain) and decided to correct my dog himself as it appeared that I was not hard enough with my corrections and the dog was still did what she wanted regardless of what correction I made.

What happened next was unacceptable :-

The so called trainer took over and yanked this young puppy with so much force that she yelped and landed 1 foot behind him. Yes she became so submissive that she wet herself. Her neck was quite sore for weeks after and damage could have been done to her airways.

To me this was an abuse of a slip chain by an experienced trainer. Abuse and injury can be caused by any collar regardless to what it is or how it works. I agree education on the use of training tools should be given to all dog owners but someone who knows what their are doing etc.

After much research, reading article, searching the web etc I now believe that the German Training Collar is a effective tool used correctly would never have made by dog suffer as she did with the slip chain. (See The Obedient Dog, 4th edition, by John Holmes).

[Kavik]

On a side note . . .

In some of my older fiction books like the Big Red series with the Irish Setters, there is a mention of slip collars and training collars. For the longest time I wondered what that meant, as I had assumed slip collars would be what they meant by training collar, but now I think they might have meant prong collar? What do you guys think? In the book Irish Red, it is mentioned that Mike pulled on a slip collar but would not on a training collar.

[Erny]

After much research, reading article, searching the web etc I now believe that the German Training Collar is a effective tool ...

Thanks for your contribution Xaube.

According to the documents obtained through FOI and upon which the Govt deliberated and passed the Bill to "ban" to legislation, that your dog pulled on the lead is because you made an "inappropriate selection of dog".

Edited November 6, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

Hi Kavik ... I can only guess that's what they meant. Or e-collar. But my guess would be with the former, in the context that you have written.

[Xaube]

Erny,

That dog responded to reward training and became one of the most reliable dogs ever, sadly to say she died at a very young age with bloat. Wonder what the adviser to Gov Policy would say to that (me being an ex-Gov employee and Policy Forum Adviser)

I am now the owner of two more GSDs ,that have obtained Obedience Titles and Tracking Titles, (trained by an older and more informed trainer I).

Let me explain a slip chain is what we call a choker and a German Training Collar is a prong collar.