Pressure Point Collar (aka Prong) Discussion Welcome

[Rom]

One thing that I found interesting after I got my prong, was that 4 other people, including one who would otherwise refer to herself as a PP trainer 'come out of the closet' and admitted that they had owned/bred the odd dog that resorted to using the prong on. These are people who have owned/bred/trained dogs for anything up to 30 years. However, none suggested the prong to me when they saw my girls issues.

Since getting my prong, I've met two other people directly through the doggy world who use them. One has withdrawn from the doggy world because she felt that it was the best thing for her dog since she wasn't allowed to have him on prong at doggy events. The other is a closet user because the doggy group that she is a member of doesn't allow them.

Willow, it wasn't that long ago that my beliefs were similar to yours . My current dog has led my education in ways that I wouldn't have expected three years ago.

I was also involved with the RSPCA, and know that they support PP training. However, through my own research on the importance of obedience training, 2 years ago I contacted the Head of Shelter Operations for RSPCA in Qld to ask what percentage of dogs were euthanised for behavioural reason. For the 2004/2005 period, approx 50% of those dogs and puppies that were euthanised were euthanised for behavioural reasons....

Dog dumpage rates are reaching horrendous levels. I have to wonder if some of those dogs that were euthanised for behavioural reasons would still be with their families had there been a wider range of 'politically correct' training methods available to them? Methods that suited the temperament/drives/thresholds of the dog in question? And, has the PP training culture let these dogs down?

I've been working on an analogy that I haven't really nutted out yet, but it's something along the lines of this:

Nobody looks forward to their dog having to undergo surgery. There are inherent risks associated, and the recovery time to consider. However, sometimes surgery is the best option available for the dog and the trade off is for some short term suffering and discomfort, the future prognosis is good and the dog will be able to live a life of greater health, comfort and freedom.

I look at administering corrections as though I was specialist surgeon. Do the absolute minimally invasive surgery you have to do, but do it well enough that you fix the problem promptly without having to go back. Don't over medicate because more is not necessarily better. Do the absolute best you can to protect the overall physical, mental, and emotional well being of the patient so that they can, to the best of your ability, live a long and healthy life.

In some instances, its not just the dog whose life depends on it. Its the anguish of the family that owns and loves that dog.

ETA emoticon to indicate that I wasn't flame throwing :D

Edited July 7, 2007 by Rom

[Erny]

Nobody looks forward to their dog having to undergo surgery. There are inherent risks associated, and the recovery time to consider. However, sometimes surgery is the best option available for the dog and the trade off is for some short term suffering and discomfort, the future prognosis is good and the dog will be able to live a life of greater health, comfort and freedom.

I look at administering corrections as though I was specialist surgeon. Do the absolute minimally invasive surgery you have to do, but do it well enough that you fix the problem promptly without having to go back.

Rom - what a fantastic analogy. Well done. Do you mind if I was to use that from time to time, with all due credit to you?

[Rom]

Thanks Erny

Please do use it. If it helps to save a dog, then I'm happy!

[Guest Willow]

I see what you're all saying (and Rom, I appreciate the and accompanying explanation :D ) and I understand your arguments that short term use could help save a dog or keep a dog with it's family and stop it being dumped at a pound.............admittedly, that is an argument i had not considered.

However, personally I will still choose not to use them. I can liken it to the fact that I choose not to eat meat.......i understand the arguments *for* it, but I feel ethically more comfortable with my choice not to......I don't have bad feelings towards people who do eat meat, but I choose to live my life a different way (and this is just an analogy....I'm not intending to go off on a tangent about vegetarianism....I was just trying to think of a way to put it :D )

It's the same with prong collars.............It's my own personal beleif that there is another wayto do things, same as it's the personal beleif of many of the posters on this thread that this *is* a better way. Despite the fact I disagree with their use, I can also see that the reason you guys advocate them comes from a desire to see a dog have the opportunity to lead a happier & more fulfiling life. At the end of the day it's what we all want, but we will just go about it in different ways.

The use of them just doesn't sit comfortably with me...........perhaps if I owned a 70kg out of control dog I would have a different opinion..but I don't and maybe the dogs I have owned have shaped my opinion of the training methods I feel are acceptable. They say you should walk a day in someone elses shoes before you judge them, and who am I to judge.........I guess all I can say is I like my way, and other people like their way.....that is just the way life goes.

What I *do* like is that I can come on this thread, express my opinion, and not be flamed for it. Polite, respectful debate is healthy and educational, and there should be more of it, because as human beings, how can we respect the differneces between us all unless we can talk openly about them and without fear of recrimination???

What have I learned from this thread???? I have come away with it still comfortable with my own beleifs, but with a new understanding of why some people choose to use prong collars.

Thank you for listening to my opinions ;)

[Erny]

What a nice post, Willow .... thank you.

I have no knowledge of your background nor with what dogs/dog behaviour (issues) you've had experience with, nor do I seek to ask it here. It is unneccessary to do so. Your acknowledgement that others of us have had (or seen others who have had) the good need for use of the prong collar is enough . In the time before the prong ban, I have worked with people and their dogs where but for this piece of equipment, were at the threshold of despair and hopelessness in their relationships with their dogs.

Naturally, my (and others') objective was to remove the initial cause of the behaviour (eg lack of leadership). By the stage I got to see these people though, much of the dog's unwanted behaviour (and the reason people were driven to seek help) had become learnt. (Note: Remember too that many dogs are rescue dogs, without known history .... sometimes prior cause was indeterminable.) So there was duel work to be done - the first to address the cause and the second to address the resultant learnt behaviour.

With the prong collar - it is not that it is a harsher tool than any other. IMO it is not. The action of the prong collar is different to that of any of the check chain or head collar. The prong produces response due to its manipulation of the skin - or more particularly, the skin's nonoceptive receptors. This produces an increased and more efficient response from the dog, without the training tool bearing (or risking to bare) a more severe (and often less productive) action against the deeper muscle tissue of the dog's neck. As a result, generally a lesser correction is required for a closer to maximum behaviour response.

It is not always about the dog being massively large either. I witnessed many a fast and much sought after desireable response from Staffies wearing the prong, compared to their previous well (or over) tried other pieces of training equipment. Similarly, I have also worked with Border Collies, whose behaviour complexities and complications were not responsive to other equipment choices.

I have worked with people who were the ones who sported the physical limitations which prevented them from being able to properly and effectively use other training tool types. One example was a person with a (from memory .... it was a long time ago) a kelpie x of sorts. The dog was quite a strong dog and although through previous training was reasonably responsive, its tendancy was towards over excitement easily triggered by various stimuli in its environment. Its owner ended up in a car accident, leaving her with very reduced strength or movement in her arms. Without the availability of the prong collar which in Victoria was still then a permitted and valuable training tool, this person - who had already suffered dearly as a result of the MVA, stood to lose her dog to the necessity of re-homing it with someone more physically capable.

I also know of a dog who sported a genetic 'fault' the result of which was that it could not tolerate any form of collar which would create pressure across its trachea. The ONLY collar of any description the dog could cope with was the prong. Another dog had received a neck injury earlier in its life as the result of being hit by a car. Once again, the prong collar was the safest training equipment for use on this dog. Both of these dogs were small/medium sized dogs.

I know of a lady who has owned GSP's all (or at least most) of her life. She came for help because the one living with her now was over exuberant and unmanageable on walks. A delightful dog it is, too - and very responsive. Within 15 minutes in the hands of a trainer, the dog was walking quite nicely and very respectful to its obedience commands. Certainly wonderful dog. The problem was that its owner had arthritis - not only, but especially worse, in her hands. The arthritis had worsened and the dog, being the wilful spirit that he is, was able to take advantage of his owner's limitation. We worked with the owner and this dog, over time, trying also the use of a head-collar. The owner was even less able to utilise this, given her dog's aversion to it. I really do believe this dog would have performed excellently for its owner if the prong ban currently in force had not prohibited its use. Unfortunately I won't know the outcome for this lady and her dog as after at least 12 months of effort (with comparitively smallish improvement), she no longer comes to class.

No dogs that I know of have ever cringed or shown aversion to their prong collars (and in fairness, I could say the same of the dogs who I've known to have been worked in a check chain). It doesn't go to follow that just because the equipment is fitted that it needs to be applied. The faster a dog learns, the less frequently a correction needs to be applied and so you can go from a dog who always pulls, chuffs and chokes its way along a walk with no opportunity for reward for desired behaviour, to a dog happily walking with loose lead and otherwise impeded ................... and tonnes of ensuing reward .

Willow - my own girl (now crossed the rainbow bridge .... bless her) did not need the use of a prong collar. I used a check chain on her (admittedly - this was prior to my knowledge and understanding of a prong) and in her lifetime with me, I could count the number of physical corrections she ever required, on one hand, with fingers left over. So sensitive was she that a verbal correction would weigh more heavily than a physical one. Whilst I usually walked her out on a check chain, I cannot recall in the last few years of her life, needing to use it. But it was there in case it was needed. This is what I mean by not having to activate the equipment (in the case of this thread, the prong collar) just because it is on the dog.

Thanks again Willow, for your contribution to this thread. I understand and agree that each person has and is entitled to their own views. You have been big enough to acknowledge though there are people out there who due to their own personal circumstances as well as those of their dogs, may well be in a completely different situation demanding an alternative set of views that you can recognise the validity of. I appreciate your open mindedness. This is what makes the world go around.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

I know of a lady who has owned GSP's all (or at least most) of her life. She came for help because the one living with her now was over exuberant and unmanageable on walks. A delightful dog it is, too - and very responsive. Within 15 minutes in the hands of a trainer, the dog was walking quite nicely and very respectful to its obedience commands. Certainly wonderful dog. The problem was that its owner had arthritis - not only, but especially worse, in her hands. The arthritis had worsened and the dog, being the wilful spirit that he is, was able to take advantage of his owner's limitation. We worked with the owner and this dog, over time, trying also the use of a head-collar. The owner was even less able to utilise this, given her dog's aversion to it. I really do believe this dog would have performed excellently for its owner if the prong ban currently in force had not prohibited its use. Unfortunately I won't know the outcome for this lady and her dog as after at least 12 months of effort (with comparitively smallish improvement), she no longer comes to class.

I think I actually met this lady when visiting the Hawthorn ADT at the beginning of June when I was in Melbourne. I really felt for her. She was frustrated, embarrased. She sooo wanted for things to be better for both her own sake and that of her dog. She was at a loss as to why this particular dog was so different to train than the other GSP's that she'd had. I'm really sad to hear that she has stopped coming to training.

At the time, she had him on what I think was a sporn harness...one of those that have straps that tighten and put pressure on the nerves in the front legs to discourage a dog from pulling. Despite this, the dog still managed to get away from her....he had a marvellous time tearing around the training field trying to round birds, and you're right Erny, he is a gorgeous dog.

Here is a dog that clearly needs the mental stimulation and physical exercise that regular walking would help provide. His owner loves him, understands the breed, and under different circumstances, would be more than willing to put the time into him to ensure he gets what he needs. Whilst I don't know all of this ladies circumstances, the danger now is that there will be limited options available to her to help provide him with the level of mental stimulation and physical exercise that would help keep him manageable and in his frustration of not getting his needs in these areas met, he may develop other unwanted behaviours.

The simple act of walking him, in the instance of this handler and this dog using the methods legally available, presents the possibility of far too many dangers for both the dog, the handler and the public in general. Just one of many instances where the legislation is letting caring dog owners down.

[Erny]

At the time, she had him on what I think was a sporn harness...one of those that have straps that tighten and put pressure on the nerves in the front legs to discourage a dog from pulling.

I'm glad to hear she is still out there trying - I haven't seen her for ages, so thought she'd stopped coming. Given that the sporn harness works by pressure on the nerves of the dog's front legs, I dont' understand why people are so opposed to the prong collar, which serves in the same or at least similar manner, ie by putting pressure on the nerves at skin depth at the dog's neck.

[Rom]

Out of curiosity, I had a play with the prong today to test the level of the pinch. In its no tension state, the prongs (or pinchers if you will) were 29mm apart. At full pinch...or enough tension on the lead to take up all of the limited slip chain, the prongs were 23mm apart. So a total of 6mm of movement. The measurements may be a little out cuz I did the test on my own leg, and it was tricky holding the prong in one hand and trying to get the measurements with the other.

I just thought I'd post that to demonstrate that its not like the nasty pinch you got from the school bully, more like the tweak that your grandma gave you on the cheek when she said 'My, hasn't she grown?!' Which I'll admit that I didn't always find that comfortable as a kid , but it was hardly abuse.

[Rom]

At the time, she had him on what I think was a sporn harness...one of those that have straps that tighten and put pressure on the nerves in the front legs to discourage a dog from pulling.

I'm glad to hear she is still out there trying - I haven't seen her for ages, so thought she'd stopped coming. Given that the sporn harness works by pressure on the nerves of the dog's front legs, I dont' understand why people are so opposed to the prong collar, which serves in the same or at least similar manner, ie by putting pressure on the nerves at skin depth at the dog's neck.

Ooops! Erny, I made the assumption that she'd given up since I saw her. I'm really glad that she's still out there trying with this dog. She has my respect. She is putting in an awful lot for this dog.

[Anissa]

I personally can not see ANY reason why I shoul use a punishment on my dog when it is simply MY OWN FAULT if he hasn't learned to do want I want.

If my dog is pulling I am teaching him not to in a positive way. It is simple as that.

I donn't even use any sort of collar (only harnesses) to prevent my dogs of getting injured (or any sort of pain/uncomfortnes) just in case they do jump in the leash (which they both don't do).

I can't see ANY reason to use force or punishment on my dogs since I am working solely positive (I am a "clicker addict" for 10 years now). For me force/punishment etc starts where knowledge ends. Both are very happy, creative dogs that alwas want to please and as soon as they understand that a behaviour is not appropriate (and therefore simply not reinforced by me) they won't do it again. There are ALWAYS other ways to deal with a situation and up to now I have never had one where there are no other options than punishing/forcing my dogs.

[MonElite]

Its great Anissa for someone like you it works wonders.

What do you suggest for someone that has no idea about dog training and has a fully grown up dog with multiple behavioural issues?

[Rom]

I personally can not see ANY reason why I shoul use a punishment on my dog when it is simply MY OWN FAULT if he hasn't learned to do want I want.

If my dog is pulling I am teaching him not to in a positive way. It is simple as that.

I donn't even use any sort of collar (only harnesses) to prevent my dogs of getting injured (or any sort of pain/uncomfortnes) just in case they do jump in the leash (which they both don't do).

I can't see ANY reason to use force or punishment on my dogs since I am working solely positive (I am a "clicker addict" for 10 years now). For me force/punishment etc starts where knowledge ends. Both are very happy, creative dogs that alwas want to please and as soon as they understand that a behaviour is not appropriate (and therefore simply not reinforced by me) they won't do it again. There are ALWAYS other ways to deal with a situation and up to now I have never had one where there are no other options than punishing/forcing my dogs.

Hi Anissa , I've really enjoyed reading your posts....you post some beautiful pictures.

I'd like to clarify the below in relation to your post above

Anissa:

I only use harnesses on my dogs since I think it is very bad for their back to be held on a dog collar (esp when pulling). My Galgo-X is a real hunter so when he spots a Roo (or whatever) he jumps into the lead and could seriously injure his back when wearing just a collar.

Have you managed to change this behaviour using just the clicker since the above post? Or is it a behaviour that you have just decided to manage with a harness?

If there is something in clicker training that I've missed, I'd really like to know!

In the example of the lady with the GSP above, a harness isn't the answer. Harnesses are often used to make pulling easier and more comfortable for those dogs that are engaged in activities that require them to pull such as sledding.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Rom

[Staranais]

I can't see ANY reason to use force or punishment on my dogs since I am working solely positive (I am a "clicker addict" for 10 years now). For me force/punishment etc starts where knowledge ends. Both are very happy, creative dogs that alwas want to please and as soon as they understand that a behaviour is not appropriate (and therefore simply not reinforced by me) they won't do it again.

Questions for Anissa, if that's OK.

1) How do you train without punishment? Things like ignoring a dog, telling him "no" or "uh-uh", refusing to let him have a toy, putting him in time out, are all punishment. I can't see how one could train a dog without doing anything like this? Or do you mean that you use some types of punishment but not others, and if so, could you tell us how you decided which types of punishment are OK with you and which aren't?

2) How would you go about training a dog to stop performing a very rewarding but completely unacceptable behaviour (e.g something like stock chasing, which many dogs find extremely rewarding, more rewarding than anything you could possibly provide)? I'm asking this one since I've asked several "positive only" clicker trainers this question and not got a satisfactory response (most just said "just keep the dog on leash", but keeping a dog on leash forever seemed both silly and cruel to me), so I'd be interested in hearing more about your methods.

Thanks!

[Lablover]

Good old fashioned heeling stick or heck, a fly swatter can be used as correction tools.

[Anissa]

What do you suggest for someone that has no idea about dog training and has a fully grown up dog with multiple behavioural issues?

I would suggest to look for a good behaviourist/dog school and to learn a great deal about about dog training myself.

I don't think that "knowledge" should be an argument. As a dog owner (especially with a dog that has behaviour issues) IMHO you should learn how to deal with it.

In Germany (where I come from) it is completely normal for 90 % of the dog owners to study how dogs learn, about behauvoiur training, health, nutrition etc. and all dogs go to the dog school. I own dogs now for over 20 years and I have constantly tried to stay up to date with studying and learning how to train my dogs, about nearly everything relating to dogs and their needs.

My Greyhound has some severe probs with other dogs for example and therefore I read loads of books about that topic, go to a dog school and a behaviourist and train, train, train. But in this case I think that a prong collar would just increase my problem since I have no idea in which way my dog relates the punishment (with me, with the other dog or maybe with his behaviour). Additionally a dog that is in a stage where it starts jumping into the collar it is probabely quite agitated and it is most likely that it won't learn anything I want to teach him (like not doing this), the additional pain just increases the unwanted effects. It might help to make you able to hold your dog but it is NOT a training aid. To train for example the aggression you will have to take a completely different approach.

But since this is becoming a bit off topic...

[MonElite]

the additional pain just increases the unwanted effects.

And there is no pain with the sporn harness?

Contless people in this thread and many other threads said that they have put the prong collar on themselves and there is no pain.... Perhaps you dont know how to use the collar correctly?

In Germany (where I come from) it is completely normal for 90 % of the dog owners to study how dogs learn, about behauvoiur training, health, nutrition etc. and all dogs go to the dog school.

Its the same in Poland where I come from. I wish it was the case in Australia as well.

[Anissa]

Hi Anissa , I've really enjoyed reading your posts....you post some beautiful pictures.

Thanks!

I'd like to clarify the below in relation to your post above

Anissa:

I only use harnesses on my dogs since I think it is very bad for their back to be held on a dog collar (esp when pulling). My Galgo-X is a real hunter so when he spots a Roo (or whatever) he jumps into the lead and could seriously injure his back when wearing just a collar.

Have you managed to change this behaviour using just the clicker since the above post? Or is it a behaviour that you have just decided to manage with a harness?

Not completely but at least to a great deal, I am constantly trying to establish a more "appropriate" way to behave when spotting something "huntable". Since his behaviour is completely driven by instinct and heavily self rewarding it is quite hard work.

But we are now at the stage that Manu is just doing the "sit" when spotting something and as a reward he is allowed to watch it. Occasionally he still jumps into the lead (maybe once in 14 days) when his "prey" is too close.

If there is something in clicker training that I've missed, I'd really like to know!

Don't know. For me it is the best and simplest way to train.

In the example of the lady with the GSP above, a harness isn't the answer. Harnesses are often used to make pulling easier and more comfortable for those dogs that are engaged in activities that require them to pull such as sledding.

That is definatelt true but neither is a prong collar.

I personally would try to find a more suitable home for the GSD.

The dog will surely develop more behaviour probs over time and she will be even less able to handle him.

If you are physically not able to handle a specific dog sometimes for both, owner and dog, it is better to look for a new home. I know, that is a heartbraking solution but most probabely in both their interests...

[Anissa]

Questions for Anissa, if that's OK.

1) How do you train without punishment? Things like ignoring a dog, telling him "no" or "uh-uh", refusing to let him have a toy, putting him in time out, are all punishment. I can't see how one could train a dog without doing anything like this? Or do you mean that you use some types of punishment but not others, and if so, could you tell us how you decided which types of punishment are OK with you and which aren't?

2) How would you go about training a dog to stop performing a very rewarding but completely unacceptable behaviour (e.g something like stock chasing, which many dogs find extremely rewarding, more rewarding than anything you could possibly provide)? I'm asking this one since I've asked several "positive only" clicker trainers this question and not got a satisfactory response (most just said "just keep the dog on leash", but keeping a dog on leash forever seemed both silly and cruel to me), so I'd be interested in hearing more about your methods.

Thanks!

1) I definately use negative reward (the removement of a reward) which is something completelt different than punishment. Have you read some books about "learning theorie"? There are 4 ways reacting to a behaviour:

1. Positiv Reward :giving a reward (like giving a treat for wanted behaviour)

2. Negative Reward: taking away a reward (like ignoring a dog or taking away a "recource")

3. Positive Punishment: "giving" a punishment

4. Negative Punishment: taking a punishment away (for example pulling the lead until the dog sits and immediately releasing the lead when done so)

I don't train with positive or negative punishment but certainly use positive and negative reward. I ignore my dogs for unappropriate behaviour and also certainly they are trained (with the clicker) to the command "leave it".

2) I do train my dog to NOT do very self rewarding behaviour (hunting and fighting other dogs) since I got him (3 years ago). It is a bit off topic and will definately take me quite a while to write it all down but simplified I keep him always on the leash, classically condition him and operantly condition him to a more appropriate behaviour. You are absolutely right that no reward I can ever offer will be better than e.g. chasing therefore I have no choice but make sue that he is NEVER doing so.

By the way: there are some very good books available from James O'Heare regarding this type of training (solely with positive rewards").

[Anissa]

the additional pain just increases the unwanted effects.

And there is no pain with the sporn harness?

Contless people in this thread and many other threads said that they have put the prong collar on themselves and there is no pain.... Perhaps you dont know how to use the collar correctly?

In Germany (where I come from) it is completely normal for 90 % of the dog owners to study how dogs learn, about behauvoiur training, health, nutrition etc. and all dogs go to the dog school.

Its the same in Poland where I come from. I wish it was the case in Australia as well.

They have actually put the prong collar around their neck and jumpt in it with the same force a dog does?????

I have seen some studies (in german) about the sever damages these collars caused in dogs (like damage of the thrachea).

Truely, I never used (and will never use) a prong collar.

[ninaandted]

If you are physically not able to handle a specific dog sometimes for both, owner and dog, it is better to look for a new home. I know, that is a heartbraking solution but most probabely in both their interests...

I think I would have to say that such a comment should be caveated by consideration of both the degree of the issue and the practicalities of finding an alternate home with a committed new owner who could handle a dog with issues. I think we all know that in a perfect world it would be an easier solution but from our own rescue section it's apparent that it's not always possible.

so meanwhile back in the real world, there will be dogs with some difficulties not necessarily matched with perfect owners. if there is a tool that can be used responsibly that assists in such circumstances I think it is the most viable alternative.

an example might be my own two dogs, both medium sized. Both respond to different kinds of training techniques and have different natures. Neither are destructive and through both positive (reward) training and negative (verbal and time out) training we have been able to train them to a level that works with our lifestyle and choices - noting that we don't compete in training and don't participate in any local training groups. However, one area that we had always struggled with was with their walking.

We consulted a number of professional trainers and tried a variety of methods for lead training, seeking active advice on this forum as well, however it was only after receiving training with them (again with a recognised, qualified trainer) and using the prong collar that we had any progress with their walking on lead. both have responded beautifully to this training such that they can be walked together, when I take my one year old out in his pram.

I would not be happy using the prong collar if I thought that it was routinely uncomfortable. Both dogs welcome having the collar put on as they know it means they are going for a walk but the number of times they now require a correction is absolutely minimal. For our family it has been a very positive experience - coupled with the training we were provided with obviously - I would not have been able to use the collar effectively without that training I must add! It has assisted me to clearly communicate with my dogs, especially in the circumstances of their walking.

I'm not convinced that just any amount of time and positive training would have altered their walking behaviour in the same way - believe me - we really did put in the time before going to this option and I can only emphasise the contrast in my experience. It would have been a very disappointing outcome if both dogs had needed to be rehomed simply because of issues with walking, when they are fine and well cared for in every other respect. I do think this provided a good "middle" road and practical solution without cruelty and having to go to the other extreme, with the potential risk that they couldn't be rehomed and had to be put to sleep instead.

I completely respect anyone's right or desire not to use such a tool and that not all dogs need them. However, on a case by case basis, with the proper assessment of a qualified individual and good training to back it up (training for the owner more than the dog in regard to use of the collar) I think it is a very practical and useful tool.