Kaz Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Prong collar? I'm a convert! It's not my first choice of training tool but for certain dogs it's a lifesaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Perhaps it is a problem in translation (I take it your first language isn't English?) This is quite a good link on the topic, with all the relevant vocabulary:http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Operant Yes, I am german and I am not very good in writing my thoughts in english, so a lot of my stuff comes out a bit different to what I meant. I will do my best to write it more acurately. So you are absolutely right that keeping Manu muzzled on an the lead is management not training. I train him _additionally_ (with a bit of success by now) but we are far away from our goal yet. Again quite off topic, sorry for that! edit: by the way, thanks for the link! Edited July 16, 2007 by Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I am in touch with Dr. Fedderson-Peterson in Germany about this study on the usage of prong collars and hope to get her publication and the latest data soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I am in touch with Dr. Fedderson-Peterson in Germany about this study on the usage of prong collars and hope to get her publication and the latest data soon. That would be interesting, thanks. :cool: (At least, it will be interesting as long as the study is concerning the proper usage of prong collars, since I think we all agree already that abuse of any training tool is a bad thing. I read a nasty study on e-collars once where the researchers completely abused the poor dogs with the collars, used them at high voltages, applied the shocks as non-contingent punishment, etc. Then when the dogs got stressed they concluded that e-collars were bad. I mean, duh! That's just bad science. But I'm sure your friend will be a better scientist than that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Shameless *bump* .... just to keep this thread up alongside (or at least close) to the other one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I am in touch with Dr. Fedderson-Peterson in Germany about this study on the usage of prong collars and hope to get her publication and the latest data soon. Hi Anissa Any luck with the above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyB Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Before I came across this post I had no idea what prong collars were, but after reading up a bit I can definately see the advantages - especially for people who have disabilities or are not very strong - as long as it is used correctly and with proper training. Like all things (including dogs themselves) they can very easily be misused and I can see how they can cause a lot of damage to some dogs if not used correctly. I think that restricted use is a great idea. Perhaps if they were only supplied by Vets and qualified trainers (or only by trainers with a vets refferal) it would be a very good way to retrict the use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazz Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Ok You people are telling us that using a prong collar correctly isn't cruel. Can someone enlighten me how to use one correctly? I'd hate to run out and buy one only to hurt a dog because I have no idea how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Hi Stacey. Thanks for your post. Back before the days of the Victorian prong-collar ban, these collars were not generally available for sale 'over the counter' at pet shops or such like ..... not like (eg) check chains and head-collars, both of which potentially (and according to reports do) cause more physical harm to dogs, and which can be purchased by anyone from anywhere at anytime for any reason and without even being cautioned to seek professional training advice on proper use etc. The only places I knew of (back then) to acquire a prong-collar was via training establishments of some description. I'm not sure whether they could be easily purchased from overseas back then either .... my belief is that one needs to have a permit to be able to import them and I am presuming this restriction was the same then as it is now. So, if the Vic Government would see their way clear to recognising the values of the prong-collar and that its re-instatement under "restricted use" would constitute an even higher safe-guard than of even other more potentially injurious (but common) training/management devices, I think a very satisfactory and valuable training tool option would be made available where it is now not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 OkYou people are telling us that using a prong collar correctly isn't cruel. Can someone enlighten me how to use one correctly? I'd hate to run out and buy one only to hurt a dog because I have no idea how to use it. You wouldn't be able to do that any more than you can now, Cazz. Under "restricted use" you would be obliged to seek professional/qualified training supervision so that you can learn how to utilise it correctly. Not so for tools such as head-collars; check chains etc. ...... Yours sincerely "You People" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazz Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Nice one erny! Still, it's not just little ol' me who wants to research this, or is it? I don't want to only have the vet/trainer's word on this, I wanna look into this on my own. You've woken my curiosity...Any websites worth checking out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) Here's a few links to start you off, Cazz .... Training with the Prong Collar" Article by Suzanne Clothier Prong Collars How to fit a Prong Collar .... Leerburg Edited October 15, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazz Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 NOW I get it! I did think that they were 'permanent attachments', it hit me like a steam train that you should take them off. Check chains are such a bad idea, it makes me wonder why I kept using them. A prong collar might be helpful with Tank, if they hadn't been banned! I'm a bit worried about having a prong collar on anything but the 'dead ring'. From the links with pictures, they look like they're laid out like martingale collar, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevieg Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 im not having a go at anyone and i don't know enough about prong collars to comment because i have never needed the use of one in the past, but i just find it interesting when people say that they attach them to their legs and pull. and i read that someone had said this and had a sensible conclusion to how they are better than check chains so this isn't directed at you. but reading on the net someone wrote that they did this and it didn't hurt. i just wanted to know if they had tried it on their necks. this isn't attacking the collars, just some of the people who are using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I've been involved in training for many years....seen all the fad collars and other items promoted to "stop pulling" or 'give control'. I come back to the pinch/prong collar. I have shifted to the micro prongs even for larger dogs as I find them far more responsive. The solid plastic ones seem fairly nice too offering good control and no stress for the animal. I know that when these are used correctly, with a trained person fitting and showing how to use them, these collars offer no stress and risk no injury to the dogs neck/throat or windpipe such as traditional choke/correction chains can. They too must be instructed on their use properly...for whatever reason, many do'nt consider the chain collars a problem...they look less "harmful" but in fact studies have shown them to be quite damaging. In comparison to head halters, although I permitted them in class I made sure that the owner knew HOW they worked and the risks involved if used incorrectly. Again..prong collars do not have the risk of dislocated disks or strains in the neck due to mis use. In my opinion, focus should be placed more on these two types of training tools and off the misguided interpretations of the uninformed about pinch collars and how they are used. In the end, prongs are power steering for the handler. Easy, stressfree and not dangerous when used correctly....no different than any other collar contraption...safe and effective if used correctly....but often few feel they need lessons on the chain collar or head halter....it's bought off the shelf and slapped on the dog(often incorrectly) but yet, no one seems to raise alarms. I've never quite understood that really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 (edited) NOW I get it! I did think that they were 'permanent I'm a bit worried about having a prong collar on anything but the 'dead ring'.From the links with pictures, they look like they're laid out like martingale collar, am I right? Yes - they are a limited slip collar, Cazz. The check chain is unlimited slip. Edited October 16, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 ... often few feel they need lessons on the chain collar or head halter....it's bought off the shelf and slapped on the dog(often incorrectly) but yet, no one seems to raise alarms.I've never quite understood that really. Me neither, Angelsun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazz Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I taught the collie I had to walk on my right side, the control box was on my left, and all my friends when we went to see them, they'd take the collar off and turn it around then put it back. It didn't bother him, he pulled like a draught horse anyhow. I never thought I needed to be taught how to use chain collars, until I saw a show, with a lady walking a dane on a chain collar. The collar looked like it'd break if you sneezed on it. The dog got distracted, broke the collar and took off. The woman didn't chase the dog, she cried the collar cost $250! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 i just wanted to know if they had tried it on their necks. Yep, I've had it on my neck Its kind of like you don't feel each individual prong, but just pressure all round if its fitted firmly. If I pull it to its tightest, I can still comfortably breath and if I leave the pressure on for too long the area starts to numb. For an on and off check there is some discomfort at the prong sites and even though its alternatively known as a pinch collar, I haven't been able to manage to get it to actually pinch me from the perspective of the prongs, however, where the chain runs through the O ring I have on occasion been pinched at that site when the chain seemed to grab a piece of skin as it runs through the ring. I'd imagine that this would happen with a check chain or ordinary martingale anyways. That sensation (ie being pinched by the chain running through the O ring) was actually more painful than the action of the prongs during the check. I guess you could get an idea of the level of discomfort when you understand that some dogs learn to pull quite happily on the prong if they haven't had proper training with it, and I've actually seen one dog that was dragging his owner like a freight train even though he was wearing a prong. So like everything else, there needs to be a successful method of use too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatrinaM Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Prong collars are an excellent training tool, much more humane than check chains and devices such as haltis. It would be very difficult if not impossible to injure a dog using one correctly. They can make a huge difference to the improvement gained in training to all types of dogs with a variety of problems. I cannot understand why such a usefull and humane tool is banned from use. Katrina Hartwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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