Pressure Point Collar (aka Prong) Discussion Welcome

[MonElite]

I have seen some studies (in german) about the sever damages these collars caused in dogs (like damage of the thrachea).

linky please

[Lablover]

I have seen some studies (in german) about the sever damages these collars caused in dogs (like damage of the thrachea).

linky please

Me too.

Apparently there was a conference once (in Europe???), in which a speaker spoke of damage caused by correction collars, regardless of their sensitive or mindless use. This in time became FACT.

Edited: Sorry bad spelling/grammer day, again.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Lablover

[MonElite]

I do train my dog to NOT do very self rewarding behaviour (hunting and fighting other dogs) since I got him (3 years ago). It is a bit off topic and will definately take me quite a while to write it all down but simplified I keep him always on the leash, classically condition him and operantly condition him to a more appropriate behaviour. You are absolutely right that no reward I can ever offer will be better than e.g. chasing therefore I have no choice but make sue that he is NEVER doing so.

You have made a choice of never using any form of punishment for bad behaviour but you always keep the dog on a lead.

I made a choice that I do use some forms of punishement and my dogs get the freedom of running off lead.

I will never regret my choice as seeing my dogs enjoy their free run is all aobut their quality of life that I am able to provide them with.

On the same note - some people will chose not to ever walk their dogs as they pull so much, and some will get the prong collar and take the dog out for a walk. I know what would I choose.

[Anissa]

I have seen some studies (in german) about the sever damages these collars caused in dogs (like damage of the thrachea).

linky please

e.g this book: Dorit Feddersen-Petersen: Hundesport und Ausbildung von Hunden, in Das Buch vom Tierschutz, Ferdinand Enke Verlag, Stuttgart 1997, S. 659

but I will have a look later what I can find.

[MonElite]

can you scan it pls, or take a photograph of it, Im not going to be buying a book.......

[haven]

1) I definately use negative reward (the removement of a reward) which is something completelt different than punishment. Have you read some books about "learning theorie"? There are 4 ways reacting to a behaviour:

1. Positiv Reward:giving a reward (like giving a treat for wanted behaviour)

2. Negative Reward: taking away a reward (like ignoring a dog or taking away a "recource")

3. Positive Punishment: "giving" a punishment

4. Negative Punishment: taking a punishment away (for example pulling the lead until the dog sits and immediately releasing the lead when done so)

I don't train with positive or negative punishment but certainly use positive and negative reward. I ignore my dogs for unappropriate behaviour and also certainly they are trained (with the clicker) to the command "leave it".

Actually, they are

1. Positive Reinforcement: adding something that increases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. giving the dog a pat, treat, verbal praise etc if this is something the dog desires at the time

2. Negative Reinforcement: Removing something that increases the frequency and/or intensity of a behvaiour e.g. cessation of pain, noise, pressure etc

2. Positive Punishment: adding something that decreases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. giving the dog a check on the chain, yelling 'no' staring, growling etc

4. Negative Punishment: removing something that decreases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. ignoring the dog, witholding an expected reinforcer, loss of freedom, sin bin etc

You certainly do use punishment in your training, by ignoring unwanted behaviour in your dogs

Such is the crux of contention between so called 'traditional trainers' and self professed 'postitive only' trainers, they both use punishment, but one tells themselves otherwise because it makes them feel better and scorns the other for calling a spade a spade

ETA: Oops, sorry Erny, I wasn't paying attention to which thread I was in Guys, I think this is a bit OT from what the idea of the thread is and given that Erny wants to use this for her submission we probably should take further diecussion along this line to another thread

Edited July 10, 2007 by haven

[Anissa]

Actually, they are

1. Positive Reinforcement: adding something that increases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. giving the dog a pat, treat, verbal praise etc if this is something the dog desires at the time

2. Negative Reinforcement: Removing something that increases the frequency and/or intensity of a behvaiour e.g. cessation of pain, noise, pressure etc

2. Positive Punishment: adding something that decreases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. giving the dog a check on the chain, yelling 'no' staring, growling etc

4. Negative Punishment: removing something that decreases the frequency and/or intensity of a behaviour e.g. ignoring the dog, witholding an expected reinforcer, loss of freedom, sin bin etc

Sorry, I always struggle with the language...

That is a much better than what I wrote. I have read most of the learning theory stuff in german and can't properly translate most of it.

[Jeff Jones]

I have seen some studies (in german) about the sever damages these collars caused in dogs (like damage of the thrachea).

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:

* 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.

* The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.

* Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.

* Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

the 1 dog that had damage to its neck area was proven to be via missuse of the prong by the handler.

ETA: oops only read havens post after i posted

Edited July 10, 2007 by Jeff Jones

[Erny]

1) I definately use negative reward punishment (the removement of a reward) which is something completely different than punishment.

Actually, Anissa .... it isn't. It is a punisher as well. Negative punishment can be quite a stressful experience for the dog. Admittedly its affect (other than the resultant behaviour) is not visible to the naked eye as is the application of a physical correction, but that doesn't make it less punishing. No-one likes punishment, including trainers. As Haven has said, Negative Punishment is often easier for humans to administer because it doesn't make them feel as bad.

The other thing about negative punishment is that it has the potential to even be rewarding to the dog. For example if food is being offered as the reward to a dog who is full, withdrawal of the reward might be perceived as rewarding (except for labradors ). A dog who is tired from exercise might perceive the withdrawal of play as rewarding.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

ETA: Oops, sorry Erny, I wasn't paying attention to which thread I was in Guys, I think this is a bit OT from what the idea of the thread is and given that Erny wants to use this for her submission we probably should take further diecussion along this line to another thread

No Haven - it's all good . Provided the topic keeps in mind and curves back towards the subject of the "prong collar" then this side-line banter is ok. After all, the people who will be reading the thread will quite possibly be asking the same questions in their mind, and this will serve to help them understand, if they will.

[Erny]

e.g this book: Dorit Feddersen-Petersen: Hundesport und Ausbildung von Hunden, in Das Buch vom Tierschutz, Ferdinand Enke Verlag, Stuttgart 1997, S. 659

but I will have a look later what I can find.

I would be interested to read of what is written there, in relation to alleged physical damage to dogs by the prong collar. Of course, the studies need to be factual and based on "all things being equal" and by that I mean that any damage reported not be as the result of mis-use, unless it is clearly stated as being the case.

Look forward to your reference to this, Anissa ........... finding factual and scientific info in this regard has been thin on the ground.

Is it the same research/study as what Jeff Jones has posted here?

[malsam]

for me, its simple, I bought all the leads type in the market and try it on myself, yes, a human neck.

I actually find the prong is most humane (at least for me) because most of the others is suffocating while prong is not. There is only an associated fear because of the blunt pins that is constantly on the neck but for thicker coated dogs, this is even less effective for pain also.

My philosophy for choosing doggie stuffs is, if I dun even like it, I won't use it on my dogs as well.

Try it, and see whether u agrees with me or not.

PS : try it as in using the correct way of testing it.

[Tapferhund]

"In Germany (where I come from) it is completely normal for 90 % of the dog owners to study how dogs learn, about behauvoiur training, health, nutrition etc. and all dogs go to the dog school."

and......

"Its the same in Poland where I come from. I wish it was the case in Australia as well."

The only way it could become the case in Oz is for Australians to start viewing having and owning dogs as being a privilege (as they are in Europe) and not "a right" as is the case in Australia.

[Cosmolo]

Just one thing i would like to add re: the rehoming of dogs not suited to their owners. Who do you propose these dogs are rehomed to? Adult dogs with behaviour problems are not the most popular dog for rehoming and even if a home could be found, the chances of finding a home capable of dealing with the problems effectively are not that high. I would much rather use an appropriate tool to stop a problem behaviour and save that dog the stress of either being rehomed or being euthanased when that suitable home cannot be found..

[Rom]

I had another thought on this topic....

If I remember correctly, the Vic legislation infers that the prong collar is designed to puncture the skin. On the face of it, by the way the prong looks, many could come to the same misunderstanding.

So I've had another little play with the prong. Not terribly scientific mind you...but good for demo purposes I guess.

I have a round calico covered bolster cushion. I fitted the prong collar around it, attached my best leather lead, put the cushion on the ground and stood on it a foot either side of the prong. With the best of my effort and strength jerking the lead upwards, I couldn't make the prongs pierce the calico cover on the cushion. (Although I think I did pull a muscle in my shoulder ) I know that a calico covered cushion really doesn't represent a dogs neck, but you would think that calicos more or less open weave in comparison to the cohesional integrity of skin, that the prongs would be more likely to pierce the calico than they would skin.

I remember as a kid being curious about the semi clad guys in the freak show at circuses who laid on beds of nails...in movies I think...don't think I ever saw it in the flesh. I remember thinking that there must be some trick...the nails must be rubber or something otherwise that guy would be skewered. Then I remember seeing one of those 'tricks exposed' programs where they explained the trick behind the bed of nails. Yes the nails are real and they are sharp, but the reason that the guy doesn't get skewered is because the number of nails in the bed reduces the psi of pressure put on each nail from the guys body weight. They actually demonstrated how unlikely it was for the nails to pierce the skin by getting a semi clad guy to lay on a real bed of nails, laying a board over his stomache and getting a truck to drive over him. He still didn't get skewered.

[Erny]

I have a round calico covered bolster cushion. I fitted the prong collar around it, attached my best leather lead, put the cushion on the ground and stood on it a foot either side of the prong. With the best of my effort and strength jerking the lead upwards, I couldn't make the prongs pierce the calico cover on the cushion. (Although I think I did pull a muscle in my shoulder )

I love your thinking, Rom ....

Hope your shoulder's ok ...................... all in a good cause

[Staranais]

1) I definately use negative reward (the removement of a reward) which is something completelt different than punishment. Have you read some books about "learning theorie"? There are 4 ways reacting to a behaviour:

1. Positiv Reward :giving a reward (like giving a treat for wanted behaviour)

2. Negative Reward: taking away a reward (like ignoring a dog or taking away a "recource")

3. Positive Punishment: "giving" a punishment

4. Negative Punishment: taking a punishment away (for example pulling the lead until the dog sits and immediately releasing the lead when done so)

Actually yes, believe it or not, I have read quite a few books on learning theory. All the books I have read have defined anything that leads to a decrease in behaviour being punishment, and defined reinforcement as any consequence that leads to an increase in the behaviour. If you stop reinforcing a behaviour, making the dog being less likely to try that behaviour in future (as you do) then that's called negative punishment. So my question still stands.

Perhaps it is a problem in translation (I take it your first language isn't English?) This is quite a good link on the topic, with all the relevant vocabulary:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Operant

2) I do train my dog to NOT do very self rewarding behaviour (hunting and fighting other dogs) since I got him (3 years ago). It is a bit off topic and will definately take me quite a while to write it all down but simplified I keep him always on the leash, classically condition him and operantly condition him to a more appropriate behaviour. You are absolutely right that no reward I can ever offer will be better than e.g. chasing therefore I have no choice but make sue that he is NEVER doing so.

If you must make sure he is never in a position to fight or hunt, then I wouldn't personally call that dog trained. It is management, but not training, since the dog is only not indulging in the behaviour since you have taken away the opportunity to do so. To me, a trained dog is a dog that can be trusted not to indulge in the "bad" behaviour even if given an opportunity to do so.

If I always kept my dog muzzled and on a leash then he wouldn't ever have the opportunity to fight, but he still wouldn't be trained (and it wouldn't exactly be much fun for either of us - to me keeping him perpetually leashed seems crueler than using positive punishment to help fix a problem. But different strokes for different folks, I guess).

As far as I can see, you can train a dog not to perform a very self rewarding behaviour either by providing a better reward for an alternative behaviour (if a better reward exists, which in the case of stock chasing it often won't) or you can devalue the "bad" behaviour by using an aversive, so that your rewards are more attractive in comparison. I can't see any other solutions, though if you want to suggest some, I would be interested.

Eta:

Jeff Jones - I'm pretty sure that study is an urban myth. As far as I can tell, it was never published anywhere, and noone has any details on where it was done or who carried it out. I even emailed the woman who ran the seminar where the study was supposed to have been presented, but got no response. If you have more details of the study, or some proof of its actual existence, please post!

Edited July 10, 2007 by Amhailte

[Lablover]

Eta:

Jeff Jones - I'm pretty sure that study is an urban myth. As far as I can tell, it was never published anywhere, and noone has any details on where it was done or who carried it out. I even emailed the woman who ran the seminar where the study was supposed to have been presented, but got no response. If you have more details of the study, or some proof of its actual existence, please post! ;)

Me too, again.

Can I ask a probable silly question here, apart from heeling, what do you all think is the advantage of a prong?

[Rom]

If you are physically not able to handle a specific dog sometimes for both, owner and dog, it is better to look for a new home. I know, that is a heartbraking solution but most probabely in both their interests... ;)

I think that is one of the points of this thread. Expanding the training options means that dogs are more likely to be able to stay with their families. Statistics, factual data and anecdotal evidence indicate that PP trainers are more likely to arrive at a solution similar to yours than balanced trainers are.

RSPCA promotes PP training....yet approx 50% of those dogs and puppies that they euthanase are euthanased for behavioural reasons.

Dr Kersti Seksel BVSc (Hons) MRCVS MA (Hons) MACVSc (Animal Behaviour) from her speakers notes at the Brisbane Clomicalm Conference:

"The largest cause of death of puppies under one year of age is said to be euthanasia due to behavioural problems. Indeed, most dogs do not live to their full age potential. The average age of dogs in Australia is estimated to be only 3.5 years, which is well below their potential biological age. In fact, behaviour problems are now considered by some to be the number one reason for euthanasia in pets, regardless of age."

There is a discussion paper doing the rounds from the Qld Govt at the moment asking for comment on planned compulsory desexing legislation to help lower the number of animals that are euthanased at pounds and animal shelters. To me, and based on the above, compulsory desexing only addresses half of the problem. A dog that ends up in these facilities that has behavioural problems is still going to be euthanased regardless of whether or not it is desexed.

You have made a choice of never using any form of punishment for bad behaviour but you always keep the dog on a lead.

I made a choice that I do use some forms of punishement and my dogs get the freedom of running off lead.

I will never regret my choice as seeing my dogs enjoy their free run is all aobut their quality of life that I am able to provide them with.

On the same note - some people will chose not to ever walk their dogs as they pull so much, and some will get the prong collar and take the dog out for a walk. I know what would I choose.

I agree ;)

Trained = Freedom and access to high levels of mental and physical stimulation.

Managed = Reduction of levels of freedom, mental and physical stimulation.

Just one thing i would like to add re: the rehoming of dogs not suited to their owners. Who do you propose these dogs are rehomed to? Adult dogs with behaviour problems are not the most popular dog for rehoming and even if a home could be found, the chances of finding a home capable of dealing with the problems effectively are not that high. I would much rather use an appropriate tool to stop a problem behaviour and save that dog the stress of either being rehomed or being euthanased when that suitable home cannot be found..

Thats just it. When most people want a new dog they want a puppy. By the time many owners give up on the behavioural/training issues their dogs have....they are no longer puppies.

I have a round calico covered bolster cushion. I fitted the prong collar around it, attached my best leather lead, put the cushion on the ground and stood on it a foot either side of the prong. With the best of my effort and strength jerking the lead upwards, I couldn't make the prongs pierce the calico cover on the cushion. (Although I think I did pull a muscle in my shoulder )

I love your thinking, Rom ....

Hope your shoulder's ok ...................... all in a good cause ;)

Yeah, its all good. I have decided to never try to train a cushion though :cool:

[Rom]

Can I ask a probable silly question here, apart from heeling, what do you all think is the advantage of a prong?

Hi LL. Since I'd already done so much talking in this thread, I was kind of hoping that someone else would come in and answer this question for you

I guess the advantages have been touched on in other posts, but here's my personal take.

Apart from heeling, a prong can be used in any application where you’d used a check chain. For me it wasn’t so much about formal heeling…didn’t have any problems there, it was more about the loose lead walking. The times that I wanted to let my dog have the freedom of the length of the lead to sniff, greet people without her self triggering on something that she found rewarding in the environment.

The advantage of the prong in my mind and in my personal circumstances takes into account a number of different things.

I like to reduce as far as possible my physical and vocal involvement in the cxn because…..

Scenario: You and I are taking part in an arm wrestling competition, we are reasonably evenly matched and there is $1000 up for grabs. There is a lot of effort, grunting, yelling and sweat on both sides and the potential for a win wavers back and forth between us, but I eventually win. You might think “It doesn’t matter, I’ll get her next time, I was so close, I almost had that $1000.” You might come back with a renewed effort and be prepared to try harder.

But, if during that arm wrestle I beat you easily without breaking a sweat whilst simultaneously reading a book and sipping on a pina colada, in fact I hardly even noticed you were there, you’d be less likely to feel that you had a chance of winning. You’d be less likely to think you could gain something from another challenge. Further more, if I also then gave you $500 for not challenging me (read obey my command), why would you even bother trying? I may not be offering you the $1000 that you originally had hopes of getting (and lets face it, we can’t always offer a reinforcer that the dog values as highly as the one of his own choosing) but you didn’t lose out entirely either.

The prong gives me that advantage.

Next, I don’t like to apply a lot of force in the correction. The more force applied, the greater the potential for injury. Where two opposing forces meet there is the potential for damage, the greater the force/velocity, the greater that potential. So often you see a high drive, hard headed dog, that has a high threshold of pain (either natural or elevated by the drive) where you see a correction that virtually rips the dog off its feet in order to get the message across. There are two problems here. The first is that a high threshold for pain is no protection from injury. The second is that there are many people out there who don’t want to deliver that level of correction in order to teach/control their dog. They find it personally distasteful (and I’ll admit that I’m one of them), so the dog either gets away with the behaviour, becomes desensitised to the level of correction that the handler is willing to apply, or never stops challenging the handler in that situation.

There is another aspect of the prong that this thread hasn’t yet covered.

Some liken the action of the prongs on the dogs skin to that of another dog disciplining it by biting it on the neck.

I think that the action of the prongs may trigger a much deeper/earlier survival instinct than that, one that induces calm and relaxed compliance.

When a dam in the wild needed to move her whelps, she carried them with her teeth by the scruff of the neck. If you’ve ever seen this happen you know that in the majority of cases, when a whelp is carried in such a fashion, it stops moving, is in a state of relative relaxation and is quiet. I believe that this could be a survival mechanism. Predators were less likely to be alerted to the fact that the dam and whelps are in a potentially defenseless situation, or that the litter is being moved to a new location.

I wonder how much of this influences the effectiveness of the prong? I wonder if its not just a case of ‘you’re being bad, so I’m going to bite you’, but are there also elements of ‘calm down and be quiet, there is potential danger’? And if this is the case, does the prong also reinforce in the dog in a non-threatening, non-aggressive manner that ‘I am your protector, your leader, and I provide everything you need for survival’?

OR…am I being overly fanciful?