leopuppy04 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) I know many of you on here do 'drive training' - which I must admit, I know little of, so don't know if I incorporate any of this in my training, but thinking about it i'm sure I do..... I was playing with K last night with the tuggy and then doing a few bits of obedience before playing tuggy again (so nice to have a dog that TUGS!). It got me thinking - does anyone teach a precision type sequence with a toy - ie: a good 'front' or a heel position? What is the process and how would you teach it using a toy? I'm just curious as I LOVE using toys to build up enthusiasm and often have toys hidden in my jumper etc that just happen to 'pop' out when the dog has done the right thing. It certainly helps me get SPEED in their work. But for a completely 'clean slate' dog who has no idea what 'heel' means for example, how would you teach it using the toy alone? Also - do you always use the same toy or a variety? I find that as soon as I pick it up (in the back yard) it becomes their favourite - doesn't matter if it has been sitting in the yard all day and not a special training toy - if you have it... I WANT it Myszka - I know that you were talking a while ago about your 'glo' toys not 'glowing' for long.... did you find out a way to build up the 'glow time'??? I am awaitng my glow orbee ball and trying to think of ways to get it to 'glow' - I thought I had a great idea last night - thinking of the fridge light, but forgetting that the light actually goes OUT when you shut the door .... my excuse is it was late, I was tired and my brain stopped functioning Edited June 19, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 LP, Most of the good Obedience trainers that Ness and I love use drive in training obedience work. They usually don't call it 'drive' but call it 'motivational training' or building motivation but it's the same thing. This clip was posted ages ago and it shows using a tug toy as a reward with a clicker. Cheers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-c3VDkiMxM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Also - do you always use the same toy or a variety? I find that as soon as I pick it up (in the back yard) it becomes their favourite - doesn't matter if it has been sitting in the yard all day and not a special training toy - if you have it... I WANT it That is how it should be. The toy has no value if you do not have it. You bring it to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Although PAX I think most of them would for precision behaviours initially use food but I know for things like agility they are much more inclined to use tuggies then food. I guess it depends. I prefer to mix it up (although my girl has a lower toy drive then I would like) but food is much easier when your teaching a behaviour. It also allows you to get in more repetitions because of the time it takes to reward with a toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Ness, Food is better to teach a new behaviour but I think most dogs would prefer to do duration heeling for the chance of a big rewad like tugging or a toy than a piece of food. My dogs would anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I know many of you on here do 'drive training' - which I must admit, I know little of, so don't know if I incorporate any of this in my training, but thinking about it i'm sure I do..... I was playing with K last night with the tuggy and then doing a few bits of obedience before playing tuggy again (so nice to have a dog that TUGS!). It got me thinking - does anyone teach a precision type sequence with a toy - ie: a good 'front' or a heel position? What is the process and how would you teach it using a toy? K9: It really is a complex procedure if you want to any more than mess around with your dog. When I do Training in drove workshops, people are there all day & get a good understanding of the "basics" of training in drive in 7 - 8 hours. There is a thread on here that I wrote that quite extensive but you really have to see it... I'm just curious as I LOVE using toys to build up enthusiasm and often have toys hidden in my jumper etc that just happen to 'pop' out when the dog has done the right thing. It certainly helps me get SPEED in their work. K9: If you surprise the dog with the toy you will build in problems for later work... Some people who say they are training in drive really are using drive as a reward, this is not training IN drive & it wont produce the same reliablity in the dog.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 ROFL ok PAX mine is a bit weird I think she would much rather do duration heelwork for a huge tin of tuna or sardines or something then a game of tug or a toy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Although PAX I think most of them would for precision behaviours initially use food but I know for things like agility they are much more inclined to use tuggies then food. I guess it depends. I prefer to mix it up (although my girl has a lower toy drive then I would like) but food is much easier when your teaching a behaviour. It also allows you to get in more repetitions because of the time it takes to reward with a toy. You are like me Ness... I like to use variety between different toys/ different food and of course between each other. I almost always teach a new behaviour (be it agility or obedience) using food, hence why I am curious as to how to get the same precision with a toy..... I know I would struggle . At the end of the day though - my two will drive for the end reward - be it food or a toy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I trained Leila in drive, it was the only method of training that she responds to. We're not at the level where I don't have the motivator visable yet. But here's Leila, she goes nuts for it. Now, do excuse my handling, I confuse her a number of times and do things I shouldn't do which of course I noticed when I watched the video back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I think and thank using any reward, I suppose mainly because I enjoy high drive dogs. The two instances which stand out particularly were with 9 week old (?), maybe 10 week old pups. They learnt to play the game very easily and as a result obedience etc was a breeze. The other instance is with a dog who had VERY serious problems due to compulsion training. IMHO, this dog would have ended up on someone else's couch, if I had not used the motivational method. I probably rewarded too often at first, especially with instance 2, but as he would shut down SEVERELY with virtuallly any command, it was worth the time and repetitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I use 'mousey' for heeling. I use it for focus, close position and that general look of enthusiasm. Mousey stays in my hand and Brock occasionally gets a lick of it but doesn't actually get to have it. I hold it in my left hand, above his head and give it the occasional squeak. Not sure if I am doing it even slightly right but the result is always good!!! K9 when are you coming back to Vic????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) K9 when are you coming back to Vic????? Yes i want to know that too ETA: Given what Steve wrote, i am not sure what i actually train in. When training Darcy i have a toy that immediately makes him full of drive, combined with 'Are you ready to work?' Now when i am training he is very fast, full on and he does things perfect (for the things he knows well). He only gets to tug when i say so at the end of a certain amount of training which varies all the time. He knows he isnt allowed to touch the toy until i say OK, i do not have to have the toy with me and still have excellent results but he knows its somewhere if i say 'Are you ready....' and will still do everything. Focus is always there even if a cat is in view, which has been in the past a very high distraction. So am i training in drive? Also i cant do more then about 10minutes of training as i find he seems to be tired by the end of it. Edited June 19, 2007 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 LP, check out K9s comment as it's an important one. Using tug as a reward is a reward but training in drive is something amazing imho and a real skill to learn for handler and dog which I am barely, very barely, just beginning to get a handle on LOL. Did you tell me you had the Leerburg DVD Training Drive Focus and Grip? The drive section I found very interesting to watch and play around with with my dog. It is hard work for the dog, really hard work. But once they start to do it, BOY do they focus well. K9s next drive workshop down here is on my must do list. If you don't have the DVD see me at the next trial or PM me for details on it. I use food rewards for tricks and food rewards in regular ob training too. This is because my skill and my dog's skill when working truly in drive is simply not good enough by a long shot...yet. I really really love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hmm... nope wasn't me Arya - don't have the DVD. But my question is HOW do you/ did you train the precision, with a toy (be it 'drive' training or not). HOW do you get as many repetitions as you obviously have to have a game with the dog and toy to make it worthwhile etc.... It is not that I doubt the method, but rather I just don't know how to get the precision should I want to use a toy to teach 'heel' for example rather than food..... I know how you can build on the basics, but how do you develop the basics with a toy alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 LP - As K9 said its quite a complex process which first requires quite some time of building your dog's drive up for the toy/item. Once you have that drive built up you end up with a dog that pretty much lives to work for that toy! It's an awesome method for training and I am currently training my young girl this way. I'm not sure I'll ever go back to another way! As for how to train something specific, first you need that foundation and then it kind of depends on the dog I think (K9 you can correct me if I'm wrong). For example with drop, I used the toy to lure Ella into the position and when her chest hit the ground she was rewarded with the toy. Heel is more complex but again I guided her into position. As for repetitions, it's the same as any other form of training, you start small just a few minutes of training or a few reps and gradually increase that as your dog learns what you want. But like I said you need that foundation training or your dog will probably get bored of the toy after a couple of reps. If you get the chance to go to one of K9's training sessions I highly recommend them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Ok - complex process that it is - is someone able to give me a concise or rather summary of what 'drive' training is then..... I don't think I fully understand the type of training you are all talking about just yet . K9: I'm just curious as I LOVE using toys to build up enthusiasm and often have toys hidden in my jumper etc that just happen to 'pop' out when the dog has done the right thing. It certainly helps me get SPEED in their work. K9: If you surprise the dog with the toy you will build in problems for later work... Are you able to elaborate please??? Edited June 19, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Have you fished up that old thread on drive training yet... I know it's huge but it has sooo much information about drive training in it. Definitely worth reading! That's where I began to understand drive training, also look at K9's website, there are some articles on there about it, and I think I remember reading something on the leerburg website too... those may be good places to start to understand this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Have you fished up that old thread on drive training yet... I know it's huge but it has sooo much information about drive training in it. Definitely worth reading! That's where I began to understand drive training, also look at K9's website, there are some articles on there about it, and I think I remember reading something on the leerburg website too... those may be good places to start to understand this! Links...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Do I have to do everything!?!?!?! ok here we go: K9force - http://www.k9force.net/ click on training articles and scan down the list Leerburg - http://www.leerburg.com/ look at the ebooks and training articles DOL thread - http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=43795 there are a few others on this sort of thing, just do a search on training in drive, or something similar OOoooh look another one - http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...;hl=prey++drive Happy reading!!! ETA - the extra link I found Edited June 19, 2007 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Have you fished up that old thread on drive training yet... I know it's huge but it has sooo much information about drive training in it. Definitely worth reading! That's where I began to understand drive training, also look at K9's website, there are some articles on there about it, and I think I remember reading something on the leerburg website too... those may be good places to start to understand this! Links...... Do a search for it, it will come up under drive.... Edited to add Seita beat me to it! Edited June 19, 2007 by feralpup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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