Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Obviously you have my support. Hi HR . I knew I could rely on you. And I will ...... I promise . If you can do what you can to spread the word and ask people to provide written essays/reports .............. any that fit into the categories I've listed in the OP, that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 QUOTE(Jeff Jones @ 19th Jun 2007 - 12:47 PM) *I think this is covered under Australia Federal Legislation?? Mr K9 Force would know. Just to clarify - there is no NSW legislation that covers the banning or use of prong collars. The Australian Federal Legislation? covers the importation and sale by permit holders. I think thats right anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Hi guys. Thanks for all your responses and interest in this project. Whilst I want to kick-start this submission to govt as quickly as possible, please know that it will take a while. Obviously, the sooner I can get submissions/reports/essays in from you guys, the quicker the submission to govt itself will take shape. But I don't want you to think you only have a day or two to get it done. If I can get them in over the next few weeks or so that will be great. Once I've got a mainstream of them in, I will be announcing this project to another interested group. Oh - and I will be starting another thread. This new thread will be a thread where all discussion about prongs - whether you like them or not - will be entertained. But this new thread will be one where it is clearly announced that I intend to eventually print it out for possible inclusion in the submission to government that I am (well .... in point of fact, "we" are) putting together. Stay tuned. The new thread will come up later. Unfortunately I have cause to go visit the dentist very shortly. Edited June 19, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Clothier Prongs http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Personally I hope these are totaly banned. from what I've seen they are a Cruel and unnecessary training aid. People who use them for so called Drive training where the dog is chained to a tree with this collar then teased with a toy or food until their spirit is broken and they become fearfuly subserviant. There are a thousand other ways to train your dog without resorting to torture. I've never had to resort to any form of punnishment or force to train any dog that I've had in my life and all of my dogs are well behaved and respect me. My idea is if you wouldn't do it to yourself or someone you love, don't do it to the dog. Andy101, I understand your concerns however, prong collars cause less neck and trachia(sp?) injuries than a correction chain. I have used them before responsibly and I would not hesitate to use them again if need be. The key to a training item such as the prong collar is to ensure that if a person is to use them they should be trained in the correct usage by a qualified person. A prong collar should not be used to break the spirit of a dog - they are designed to make the dog more aware of a correction meaning less direct pressure is placed on the neck and trachia. When you have a dog with a large muscular neck - no amount of tugging on a correction chain will get them to pay attention especially if the collar has a tendancy to slip down away from just behind the ears . One light check with a prong collar is all that is needed to get an instant result without causing injury or fear in the dog where prolonged checking and tugging on a correction collar could see you choking your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Thanks Denis. But given this : "They may NOT be reproduced on any website, discussion board or group for any reason. " would we be prohibited from including this article in the submission to government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Raven - thanks, but this sort of post will do much better if you could perhaps repeat it in the new thread (which I will create later and for which the intent will still be to include in the government submission) rather than here? Have to go to dentist now (I've been forestalling ) but will return later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms James Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hmm, I've been looking at the Vic legislation, & I think one of the main stumbling points of the pro-prong debate might just be quantified research. So far, it seems that the pro-prong submissions have had only anecdotal evidence as to their benefits, conversely the anti-prong gang had a wealth of published research to back up their claims. In the specific case of pronged collar use on dogs there was no published research papers available in peer reviewed literature. Reliance was therefore placed on public opinion and that of professional organisations such as the Australian Veterinary Association, approved dog training organisations such as the Victorian Canine Association, and animal welfare organisations as to whether the devices were a risk to the welfare of animals, irrespective of their reported effectiveness by users. Now this poses a problem because the powers that be will always rely on the word of one article in a published journal over 100 testimonials. This makes the inclusion of a pro-prong journal article (peer-reviewed etc etc) a must. Does anyone here have good access to a university database? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Raven - thanks, but this sort of post will do much better if you could perhaps repeat it in the new thread (which I will create later and for which the intent will still be to include in the government submission) rather than here?Have to go to dentist now (I've been forestalling ) but will return later. Sorry Erny - not meant to take this off topic. Good luck on your submissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Denis No its only public reproduction - I submitted it to our dept dealing with the attempts to ban e-collars in 2002 - there is also something in copyright law which says you can reproduce articles 'for non profit educational and legal reasons' - not sure how that would go in a test case, but as far as a private submission for educational and legal purposes its fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 ms james - 19th Jun 2007 - 03:42 I have come across nothing at all on them 'cept that vague thing on autopsies but thats unacceptable as a source 'cause no one knows its origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangwyn Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Tangwyn - it depends which states you are in as to the legal side.In NSW you can buy and use them - but only licensed (?) trainers are allowed to supply them....the idea being that they ensure your responsible enough to use it correctly and to show you how. Thanks for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Ok - the new thread is up so off you go. But don't forget along the way to continue to supply those reports/submissions etc. as it is these that will form a major component of the submission. Yes - MsJames ..... if I could get hold of evidentary information rather than mostly anecdotal it would make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms James Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Erny, I'll pop down to the uni library & see if I can do a search using my cousin's login. I'll email you what I find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Erny, I'll pop down to the uni library & see if I can do a search using my cousin's login. I'll email you what I find Thank you so much, MsJames. Your help is appreciated. Very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Submission sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 And I have it ........... thanks Rom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hmm, I've been looking at the Vic legislation, & I think one of the main stumbling points of the pro-prong debate might just be quantified research. So far, it seems that the pro-prong submissions have had only anecdotal evidence as to their benefits, conversely the anti-prong gang had a wealth of published research to back up their claims. In the specific case of pronged collar use on dogs there was no published research papers available in peer reviewed literature. Reliance was therefore placed on public opinion and that of professional organisations such as the Australian Veterinary Association, approved dog training organisations such as the Victorian Canine Association, and animal welfare organisations as to whether the devices were a risk to the welfare of animals, irrespective of their reported effectiveness by users. Now this poses a problem because the powers that be will always rely on the word of one article in a published journal over 100 testimonials. This makes the inclusion of a pro-prong journal article (peer-reviewed etc etc) a must. Does anyone here have good access to a university database? Hi MsJames, When I was doing research on the prong, I couldn't find any reference to studies backing the anti-prong arguments. My, perhaps mistaken understanding, is that the anti-prong arguments were based on emotive/aesthetic influences rather than study in passing the Vic legislation. Infact I couldn't find anything anti-prong that also didn't also indicate that the prong had been misused in an abusive fashion. You're right though, the pro stuff was only anecdotal in nature. I'd be really interested in reading the results of studies done by the anti-prong lobby though if anyone has any links. Since the prong collar is more widely used in both Europe and the US, perhaps if anyone has contact with any vets over there, maybe thats where we should be seeking information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms James Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Rom, I reckon you're right, most of the research will be from US & EU where they're fairly widely used out there. Most of the decent research will only be available in research journals in libraries, so it'll be a quick trip to the uni library with a photocopy card! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Just after an update to see how things are going If there is anything else that can be done to help, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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