Ppcollar (aka Prong) - 2008 Regulation Review - Outcome

[Erny]

As I work my way (ever so slowly and cumbersomely) through the docs obtained through FOI, I am 'hit' with the marvels of what seems very little consideration towards the benefits of the prong-collar.

The "Regulatory Impact Statement" (RIS) put out prior to passing of the bill to ban the use of prong-collars (and introduce numerous other restrictions both relating and not relating to dogs) sets out a list of "Key Organisations" who were consulted with.

These "Key Organisations" are listed as :

Animal welfare organisations

RSPCA

Animals Australia (ANZFAS)

Animal Liberation Victoria (ALV)

Dog training organisations

Australian Association of Professional Dog Trainers

Whylie's Working Dogs

Other organisations

Australian Veterinary Association (Victorian Division)

Victorian Canine Association

Disclaimer : there are other organisations listed, but these were people such as Innotek - who would have been concerned in relation to the use of electronic devices, and Rodeo and Fish people ..... I've left them out of this list as it does not appear their mention would be relevant to the subject topic.

Under a section within the RIS specifically relevant to "the use of ... devices on animals" it states that "discussions were held with representatives of the abovementioned animal welfare organisations, dog training organisation, electronic dog training collar suppliers and other organisations. except the Australian Veterinary Association (Victorian Division) and Animal Liberation Victoria. The latter organisations were contacted by letter and telephone about the proposals but did not take up the offer of further discussion."

So although the RIS's list of "Key Organisations" for consultation might look impressive, for the purpose of passing of the Bill to ban the use of prong-collars, it seems the government relied upon comments and opinions of :

1. 
   1. RSPCA;
   2. VCA (although exactly what they were consulted on is not yet apparent to me so I have no knowledge yet as to whether their input related to the use of prong-collars);
   3. Animals Australia (ANZFAS); and
   4. Whylie's Working Dogs (whoever they were .... because they deregistered their business 10 days after forms were signed off by Bob Cameron MP).
   

All looking considerably bias and without balance to me at this moment.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Erny

[Erny]

Ok - finding out a bit more on this.

Turns out that "Whylie's Working Dogs" provided training for farm dogs and their owners and were agents for SmartAid electronic training systems. Their input to the 'discussions' related to e-collars.

So shall cross them of the list of "Key Organisations" which would have been received as input towards the prong-collar discussion.

[Erny]

OMG!! It gets worse???!

From the RIS it seems that :

(a) Apart from the RSPCA expressing support for the proposals in the Bill (which cover a wide range of areas, including those related to fish and horses), there is no specific submission/input in relation to its stance (or why) on prong-collars. Only specific input related to electronic devices.

(b) No input listed/mentioned on VCA's stance on prong-collars. Only on electronic devices.

© No input/listed/mentioned on AAPDT's stance on prong-collars. Only on electronic devices.

So the KEY ORGANISATIONS who were consulted for the then proposed ban of use of prong-collars submitted no specific input in relation to that particular piece of equipment, other than the RSPCA whose support was expressed by only that the proposals (over the whole Bill) was "consistent with their own policies".

And in the face of many objections coming from some very reputable and reliable and knowledgeable dog organisations, the Bill in relation to the ban on the use of prong-collars was passed !!!

I'm astonished, yet somehow I don't think I should be.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Erny

[Rom]

So the prong legislation snuck through on the coat tails of other issues without there really being any evidence to consider? :D I guess we really shouldn't be surprised, but if people were waiting in the wings to give anti legislation evidence, it really is arrogant for the govt to assume that it would never be questioned.

[Erny]

So the prong legislation snuck through on the coat tails of other issues without there really being any evidence to consider? :D I guess we really shouldn't be surprised, but if people were waiting in the wings to give anti legislation evidence, it really is arrogant for the govt to assume that it would never be questioned.

Rom - there were lots of submissions made against the then proposed legislation. I have a copy of some of them. They have been brushed aside/painted over. I don't think this was a case of "snuck through" .... I think it was a case of certain people having made up their minds and the beaurocratic protocols were put out simply as a show of having complied with regulatory procedure rules.

At least that is very much what it is pointing towards.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Erny

[Cazz]

What can I say? Looks like the government's faking a caring stance.

[Erny]

Things are moving along ..... DEADLINE for submissions is 1ST FEBRUARY, 2008

I need as many of these as possible. If you've been meaning to prepare one and send it over to me (refer original post for details and for where to send them) please give this your urgent attention.

1st February, 2008 sounds a long way off, but with Christmas coming up (and you all know how hectic that time of the year is) and then New Year festivities, the date will be upon you before you can say "Jack Rabbit". So if you can, aim to get your submission to me BEFORE Xmas, if you will.

Help will be appreciated.

I'm doing what I can this end.

[Cazz]

Erny, will type my ideas. I want to know what format it'll have to be in, letter format, bullet points of my ideas...

[Erny]

Erny, will type my ideas. I want to know what format it'll have to be in, letter format, bullet points of my ideas...

Any way which you chose, Cazz. Refer to the original post for the categories.

[Tapferhund]

Erny, from memory the VCA were pretty much kept out of any talks on this and other dog related issues. The RSPCA and AVA were the only organizations the Govt wanted to listen to,not only on the Prong Collar issue but other issues as well...like the Tail Docking debate......and look what happened there . ;)

Edited November 4, 2007 by Tapferhund

[Erny]

Erny, from memory the VCA were pretty much kept out of any talks on this and other dog related issues. The RSPCA and AVA were the only organizations the Govt wanted to listen to,not only on the Prong Collar issue but other issues as well...like the Tail Docking debate......and look what happened there .

It does seem that way, Tapferhund. The VCA are listed as a "Key Organisation" to whom they consulted. Yet there is no apparent input by the VCA directly pertaining to prong-collars. For that matter, the only input by even the RSPCA evidenced in the docs I have is that the ban is "in keeping with [the RSPCA's] policies", but even then they are not specifically referring to the prong-collar and seems to be a bit of a blanket statement.

For the VCA, the only thing I can recall being written is that the "VCA expressed support for these proposals in so far as they relate to dogs" .... They'd be entitled to their opinion of course, but it would be good if they could back it up with sound reasoning and evidence. Afterall, that's what the government call for when anyone choses to object to the passing of a Bill or legislation review.

There are numerous specific mention of the e-collar. But not the prong-collar. :rolleyes:

I really need submissions from everyone. I also specifically need submissions from professional trainers.

Please everyone - don't assume the next person is doing it .... because that's what the next person will be assuming too.

[arby]

Hey Erny, you know my stance on these.

I would rather see prongs used then check chains and things like haltis, hell even the flat collar is a nuisance with my boy.

I grew up in Poland where this is a widely used training aid. I never thought it to be "cruel" as so many people seem to think it to be. The truth is it might look bad but its done wonders for our boxer boy. He's more easy to handle and to top it off he doesnt vomit and drool like he used to on the check chains and flat collars. He doesnt get huge red marks from it digging in.

When used properly they are a bloody good training device. I actually have an old polish dog training book from 1979 and every single dog in it, including the guide dogs have a prong on them!

I'll help add something to your submission just clueless about how to write it all

[Cosmolo]

I am one of those bad people who haven't done their submission yet- will do so in the next week or two

[Erny]

I'll help add something to your submission just clueless about how to write it all

Thank you Arby ..... just address it "to whom it may concern" (unless you can think of something better). And just tell it as you see it - how the prong-collar has benefited your dog and dog behaviour. Doesn't have to be fancy or legal words. Just speak as though you were telling someone a story - except keep it factual .

I am one of those bad people who haven't done their submission yet ...

... will do so in the next week or two :rolleyes:

That will be fine, Cosmolo . Thanks .

Edited November 14, 2007 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Erny would it be better to have two separate ones from myself and OH or a single one from both of us as the business?

[Erny]

Erny would it be better to have two separate ones from myself and OH or a single one from both of us as the business?

You are each trainers in your own right ....... separate ones under the same business will be fine.

ETA: After all, you are two individuals expressing your own individual views.

Cheers!

Erny

Edited November 14, 2007 by Erny

[reddog21]

See my post in the other thread

Edited November 16, 2007 by reddog21

[arby]

Will try to get it done this weekend Erny :D

[Erny]

:D and thanks to you both (and all others who have sent in their contributions to the cause). The submission is slowing growing and with every contribution, gets better and better :D.

[Erny]

*Bump*