Ppcollar (aka Prong) - 2008 Regulation Review - Outcome

[Erny]

I am (ever so slowly) working on a submission to the Victorian Government to lift the "ban" on Pressure Point Collars (aka as "pinch" or "prong" collars) and bring them under permitted "restricted" use. Similar to that of e-collars, although without, I think, the necessity of Vet permission.

To this end it is my plan to present a card indexed 'folder' style submission. Within that folder I visualise a number of different sections :-

1. Covering letter - speaking in layman's terms and outlining in base summary the virtues a change in the legislation would provide.
   
2. Bulletted page/s summarising contents of the material contained within and throughout the folder.
   
3. Submissions/stories professing and pertaining to medical evidence of physical safety in the use of the prong collar on the dog. Professional (eg. Vet) submissions in this regard preferred but not to exclude the possibility of submission from the non-professional if it pertains.
   
4. Submissions/papers on the physiological effect of the prong on the dog - how it works and why. Links to these papers will do - I can print them off from here. But reputable sources are prefered.
   
5. Submissions/stories by the general pet-dog owner - stories of their own use, including failures before use and successes after use (of the prong).
   
6. Submissions from those whose only safe and humane choice of appropriate and suitable equipment is that of the prong (ie. physical limitations of the dog).
   
7. Submissions from any dog owner expressing their own physical limitations which make the use of other forms of equipment less desireable/effective. (eg. limited use of hands etc.)
   
8. Submissions from trainers experienced in the use of the prong-collar, including their views (and giving where possible, examples of own experiences) in comparison to use of other equipment styles.
   
9. Common myths/misconceptions.
   

If anyone can think of another appropriate 'section' that can and should be included as a separate index within this folder and that would not be covered by the above, please let me know.

I am inviting (ie asking ) for interested people to provide submissions (either made by themselves, or out-sourced - but they must be current and factual) to me for this purpose. My email address is [email protected] So that I can keep them all together would you please type the words "Prong submission" in the "re" section of the email header. In the body of your email it will help if you suggest which of the above categories you believe your attached contribution falls under.

Please bear in mind that the submissions/stories are desired to highlight the real virtues of the appropriate and applicable use of the prong, not to highlight anyone's aversion to other equipment styles/types.

When I have something in reasonable order, I plan to gather with other of esteemed and knowledgeable trainers for their input towards a finalisation of the order of the folder, before formal submission to Government. Well ...... that's my plan, anyway.

So for now, seeking help to accumulate the information required (as above).

Other suggestions are welcome but all help appreciated.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Erny

[Ms James]

Every day I check my mailbox to see if my prong has arrived from K9, I can't wait!!!

Are you going to include pictures & xrays in the submission? Hopefully some nice vets out there can help you out with some to factually demonstrate the effects check chains have on the muscular/skeletal structure of the doggy's neck. In my mind, a picture will definitely help to strongly illustrate the need for prongs & the relatively minimal effect they physically have on the dog.

Once I've got Roggie up & running, did you want me to write a testimonial? We'd only be happy to do so

[Denis Carthy]

Hi

This might be of some use

http://www.dogstuff.info/misuse_of_choke_chains_hawgood.html

[SwaY]

Someone has been selling them on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/dogs-pinch-collar_W...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Andy101]

Personally I hope these are totaly banned. from what I've seen they are a Cruel and unnecessary training aid. People who use them for so called Drive training where the dog is chained to a tree with this collar then teased with a toy or food until their spirit is broken and they become fearfuly subserviant. There are a thousand other ways to train your dog without resorting to torture.

I've never had to resort to any form of punnishment or force to train any dog that I've had in my life and all of my dogs are well behaved and respect me.

My idea is if you wouldn't do it to yourself or someone you love, don't do it to the dog.

[Denis Carthy]

Comparitive equipment in common everyday use.

Halties

Face Bleed – by Lofty

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...%20bleed#480657

Haltie bleeding behind the eye.

carene 20.04.05 13:42

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=67379

1. - Halti hell

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/37442.html

2. - Halti Pain Lab

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=61921

Haltie Nose Bleed

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/31788.html

Doom and Gloom pulling on halti

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html

Haltie Bleeding

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...eplyPost#480695

Stress Behavaiours above consistent with:

Study - 10 mins of observed behaviours

Group 1 included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.

Ref

Applied Animal Behaviour Science

Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61

Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars

L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary Medicine, College Station, TX 77843-4474, USA

Edited June 18, 2007 by Denis Carthy

[Dracdog]

Comparitive equipment in common everyday use.

Halties

Face Bleed – by Lofty

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...%20bleed#480657

Haltie bleeding behind the eye.

carene 20.04.05 13:42

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=67379

1. - Halti hell

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/37442.html

2. - Halti Pain Lab

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...ow.pl?tid=61921

Haltie Nose Bleed

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/31788.html

Doom and Gloom pulling on halti

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html

Haltie Bleeding

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/bo...eplyPost#480695

Stress Behavaiours above consistent with:

Study - 10 mins of observed behaviours

Group 1 included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.

Ref

Applied Animal Behaviour Science

Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61

Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars

L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary Medicine, College Station, TX 77843-4474, USA

Problems with Halties only occur if they are incorectly fitted or used. They have been used for hundreds of years on horses cattle sheep goats and other lead livestock with out a problem. I have used them on a couple of my dogs and found no problems arising from thier use. The dog may paw at it for a minute of so when first used but they do the same the first time you put a collar or a coat on them. I've seen worse reactions from dogs when they are dressed up of have been given a bath.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Problems with Halties only occur if they are incorectly fitted or used.

I think this is also true of prong collars. Not everyone who uses them sharpens the prongs then chains their dog to a tree and goads it. Even a flat collar can be incorrectly fitted and used (like people who don't check for puppy growth for example).

Just a general comment on the thread:

If the OP wants to write a submission for permission for controlled use that's their prerogative. If people don't agree with the OP, they can write their own submissions, after all, I doubt the OP will be swayed by the same old "your collar is cruel! no your is!" debates. It's the regulators that should be educated one way or another.

[taffy]

Personally I hope these are totaly banned. from what I've seen they are a Cruel and unnecessary training aid. People who use them for so called Drive training where the dog is chained to a tree with this collar then teased with a toy or food until their spirit is broken and they become fearfuly subserviant. There are a thousand other ways to train your dog without resorting to torture.

I've never had to resort to any form of punnishment or force to train any dog that I've had in my life and all of my dogs are well behaved and respect me.

My idea is if you wouldn't do it to yourself or someone you love, don't do it to the dog.

Actually andy I put the prong collar on my leg first, if it hurt me it wasnt going on my dog. They dont hurt, they just apply pressure in points whereas the traditional choke collars apply the pressure constantly around the neck. These got caught in my dogs fur constantly which was cruel for her and made training impossible. The prong collar has just changed her state of mind towards training, she is definately not fearful of it, infact she gets all excited, if it hurt her she would shy away from it.

They are not for every dog but they have their uses, they are a hell of a lot nicer than for example someone cant train their dog, prong collars are banned, they end up giving up and surrendering the dog, dog gets PTS because its uncontrollable.

I'd take the prong collar any day

[SoL]

Personally I think any training aid is a punishment if used incorrectly.

I have never used a prong collar so cannot comment on it but I am interested in learning more about its advantages over a check chain. I must admit it looks pretty medieval!

[Tonymc]

Andy,before I comment on any training tool I make sure that I investigateit,use it and understand it.Andy try my approach sometime. Tony

[Denis Carthy]

Andy101

I've never had to resort to any form of punnishment or force to train any dog that I've had in my life and all of my dogs are well behaved and respect me.

Denis

Totally impossible and if you tried it your dog could not learn except random behaviours by random spontaneously occurring random reinforcements, resulting in a dog/any animal with un- predictable random behaviour.

No animal capable of learning something would survive beyond a couple of mins or with luck a week or so if one or both of the punishments did not occur. In other words, your kidding yourself.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Denis Carthy

[Akitaowner]

Have sent you an email

[Denis Carthy]

Hi Akitaowner - who was your post addressed to?

[Akitaowner]

Erny the OP answering what the question was

im not particularly interested in trying to educate people that clearly have no basic understanding and still feel their opinion may be valid

(thats not you denis BTW!!)

[Erny]

Thanks for your responses. I have received the emails sent to me. Appreciated.

I know people will have their thoughts and opinions regarding the prong collar - that's been well discussed in many other and numerous other threads. This thread is not for that purpose. If you don't like the thought of prong collars I'd ask that you start a new or resurrect an old thread to hash it around some more, if that's your inclination. As another poster has mentioned - if you don't like them, you have the perogerative to begin your own submission in that vein, although you'd need to back it up with sound, factual knowledge, experience and evidence for it to bear weight. And as I mention, my plans for the submission is not to highlight the ramifications of other pieces of equipment (that's not to say they won't be mentioned for discrete but comparative purposes) and nor is it the purpose of this thread - that's been done before in many other threads as well.

I'll continue to look forward to responses and as they gather, to collate them to their appropriate categories as listed above (to which I have added one extra, as sensibly suggested by another).

Cheers!

Erny

PS Denis - Akita's post was directed to me.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Erny

[MonElite]

People who use them for so called Drive training where the dog is chained to a tree with this collar then teased with a toy or food until their spirit is broken and they become fearfuly subserviant.

And I think you have NO IDEA about drive training.

Drive trainign is a positive way of teaching dogs to do things, certainly has nothing to do with breaking any spirit and nothing with dogs becomeing fearfull.

Im wondering how on earth would a dog be lunging for a toy if its getting correted by such a "cruel"collar, wouldnt it just sit and do nothing, or become out of drive andnot willing to do anything?????

You have heard something somewhere but what you heard is twisted and not correct.

FYI yes people do tie the dogs out and do tease them with toys to delelop more play/prey in their dogs, but that is done on large flat collars as to minimise the possible correction, and often there is bungee cord used.

You might be horrified to hear that if you do flyball with your sheltie it is also trained in drive.....

Im glad tho that you love the dogs, we all here do, so if you dont want to help with the submission that is fine, there is no need for your input in this thread.

Edited June 19, 2007 by myszka

[Tangwyn]

People who use them for so called Drive training where the dog is chained to a tree with this collar then teased with a toy or food until their spirit is broken and they become fearfuly subserviant.

Hi Andy,

I've never heard of that kind of "drive training" But then, its hardly surprising, there's plenty of people put out there doing stupid things to dogs, other animals and people.

Its not the tool that's the problem, its the trainer...

Most of the motivational trainers' books I've read from the US all include use of the prong collar. I have yet to try one (mainly because of concerns regarding the legality) but am led to believe that they are actually more humane than choke chains (and I use the term "choke" not "check" because its the most misused training tool I've ever come across!).

I for one am looking forward to some clarification with regard to the legals of prong collars.

[Arya]

Oh, for God's sake PLEASE don't let this degenerate into another 'for' and 'against' prong collars slanging match. It seems to me that Erny is trying to do something professional and responsible about prong collars. If people want to slang off about them then go away and start another thread for that!!!

Erny, back to the topic, I suggest also including any information about the actual physics of the prong collar itself. The way the links are designed and how, unlike a regular slip chain, it cannot be pulled tighter than the circle created by the number of links and the martingale, and can be adjusted by addition and removal of the links to create a correct fit for each dog's neck. I have had a hunt about the web and can't find any paperwork on this, however. There is a chiropractic vet in Cranbourne, I think, who might have something on this. I don't know. But it seems to me it's an important point.

Another suggestion. How about an invitation to relevant authorities to see the collars in action. Would this be a risky thing to do, in case demonstrators incurred penalties? If so, perhaps videos could be presented.

Another suggestion, perhaps Melbourne University Vet Clinic might be able to give you some statistics on collapsing tracheas in older large dogs, possibly exacerbated by years of pulling on flat collars or correction chains. I know you want to be careful that regular correction chains don't come under scrutiny but if you include flat collars, which can cause probs too, maybe this would deflect such a problem?

Just a few thoughts.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Arya

[Akitaowner]

Tangwyn - it depends which states you are in as to the legal side.

In NSW you can buy and use them - but only licensed (?) trainers are allowed to supply them....the idea being that they ensure your responsible enough to use it correctly and to show you how.