Seita Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Ok guys I need some ideas. My Border Collie bitch likes to carry her tail nice and high which is a bit of a no no in the show ring. So I need to train her to keep it down. I think clicker training this will be the best but I'm not entirely certain what the best way to go about it is. Do you think she would get it if I get her excited so she brings her tail up and then wait till she drops it again and then c&t that movement. I think initially it will be best if I do this all just standing around doing as little as possible and attach a command to it (like 'tail') and once she gets it in that sort of environment maybe increase the movement/excitement until eventually I can have her running along beside me. This is the only idea I've come up with so far but I'm sure that the brilliant minds of DOL will have others or will be able to improve on my idea. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Is tail carriage part of "breed standard"? If so, wouldn't training her (if this is possible) to keep it low be misrepresenting her 'norm'? Is the manner in which she carries her tail the norm? Or is it only when she is in the presence of (eg) other dogs? Tail carriage when viewed against the individual dog's usual carriage normally depicts emotional status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 17, 2007 Author Share Posted June 17, 2007 Yep tail carriage is part of the breed standard and yes carrying it low is where it should be... she does carry it low when she is calm but gets a bit excited at shows and therefore raises it - she does the same with obedience training when shes very excited. For example when I take her out jogging or cycling she quite happily paces along beside me with her tail exactly where it should be (down), but get her out with a toy or lots of other dogs the tail goes up! The more excited she is the higher she carries it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylie Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 High Tail carriage in Border Collies is usually caused by an incorrect croup set. Yes they can be trained but it takes a lot of work and consistency. One word of caution do not use the word "Tail" its a dead set giveaway in the show ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 You need to first make her 'aware' of her tail...you might need to wrap the top of it as in Tellington Touch..?? Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 One word of caution do not use the word "Tail" its a dead set giveaway in the show ring. I'm not sure what you mean by this . Just curious - and upfront apologies if it is saying something more obvious than what I can see. But do you mind explaining what you mean by "do not use the word "Tail" ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Yes they can be trained but it takes a lot of work and consistency. Isn't that 'cheating' ? Don't (some) people buy because they want pups that have all likelihood of meeting breed standard? I'm not suggesting the OP's dog has this "incorrect croup set". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 (edited) One word of caution do not use the word "Tail" its a dead set giveaway in the show ring. I'm not sure what you mean by this . Just curious - and upfront apologies if it is saying something more obvious than what I can see. But do you mind explaining what you mean by "do not use the word "Tail" ?? I'm guessing that it would give away the "trick" to the judge. If it's just excitement (hey I've got a Dally...I know about excitement :p ) do you think perhaps your girl will grow out of it as she learns to relax in the ring? IMO creating a calm environment in the ring (using voice etc) would be easier than teaching her to hold her tail lower. Just a thought :D ETA: with regards to tail carriage...my lad is pretty good but if he gets very excited when "finding" a toy on command it really flies up too. Edited June 17, 2007 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 17, 2007 Author Share Posted June 17, 2007 Hi guys, thanks for your responses... wylie - I think her tail set is pretty good and like I said she carries it right when she's calm, the show environment is just a bit too exciting for her! I'm an obedience trainer so I know all about consistency and patience!!! :p staffntoller - I don't know what tellington touch is, could you please explain that a bit further? erny - I think what wylie is trying to say is that by using the word 'tail' the judge might get suspicious that the tail had been trained down. As for cheating, I guess it probably is to some extent, especially if the dog does have a bad tail set and always carries the tail high. My last Border Collie did this, the tail was completely wrong I don't think she would have been ABLE to carry it down regardless. But like I said my girl does carry it low when she is calm, she is just highly excitable and I just want to ensure that she knows what she is supposed to do with her tail! :D TSD - thanks for not questioning my intentions behind training this. I do think that it is just excitement and I have been working to make the ring more of a calm place for her but I would still like to have the ability to control what she does with her tail. The same way we stack dogs up in the ring, we have that control to make sure they are presented as best we can. My biggest issues are that I don't get the chance to show very often and the same goes for show training, I often work nights and weekends so she might only make it to one show or training night a month. The other problem is me - I am really new to this and she picks up on my uncertainty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 I'm new to showing too...but have been lucky enough to find a very good trainer who is very helpful with a mad Dally pup! I use lots of low calming voice control...."steady" etc and we don't always get it right...but we are improving and that's all I can ask! And relax and enjoy yourself...it's not like you're playing for sheep stations after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 If it is excitement I would be taking all excitement out of it........ Maybe go to every show you can get to (even none bc shows) and just wander around the crowds like it were a stroll in the park. If you go towards the end you may even do the same 'wander idle' through some closed rings etc........ make it so old hat she isn't over excited about it. And don't worry, trust me I have done enough dog and horse showing (and horse judging) to know that training an over excited dog to keep her tail low is NOTHING at all to what people will really do. And surely this is no different that teaching a exagerated springy gait or to stand alert, or using makeup, curlers/curling irons etc........I doubt you are polluting the breed standard anymore than anyone else!!! I bet if you see half the show dogs at home in the backyard their carriage and appearance is unrecognisable....as most of it isn't how the dog would normall act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Shellybeggs - thanks for that! I am working on getting her to calm down - not an easy job unfortunately, she's still very much a puppy and a very highly driven one at that!!! Although I will admit that she has improved heaps in just the last few weeks where I've been taking her along to training and a show or two as well. I do agree that there is heaps of tampering in the show ring and I really don't think that I am one of those, if she wasn't good enough to show then I wouldn't bother, all I'm trying to do is teach her what she's meant to do with her tail! So now that everyone has had a go at my reasons and intentions behind this, does anyone actually have any suggestions on methods? Wouldn't it just be like teaching a trick - like getting the dog to wave its paw or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Seita - I'm sorry if I offended you by questioning. I assure you it was an innocent question and on reflection I would imagine that if the tail carriage was due to any physical fault a judge would pick it up anyway. I agree with ShellyBeggs. If the tail carriage is the result of over-excitement, then neutralising to that excitement is what will help in bringing the tail carriage to its normal, casual position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Isn't that 'cheating' ? Don't (some) people buy because they want pups that have all likelihood of meeting breed standard? Erny - not really - if the dog is 'structurally' correct and only has a 'gay' tail because of excitement - it doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong. A dog that is structurally incorrect - wouldn't be able to hold the tail down no matter how much training it has had . Also remember that they are being judged to the 'ideal' standard - no dog is going to fit that perfectly. For example - one might have a bad front, but by grooming and stacking you can hide that (until the judge puts their hands on the dog ). Dogs in the ring will always have a fault of some sort :rolleyes:. It is a matter of deciding whether or not the fault is 'big' enough to deem it 'pet' quality. For example in the border - the 'gay' tail may be less of an issue than poor movement. To the OP - is she holding it up on the move or in the stack? Perhaps do some gaiting practice and C&T when the tail is in the right position? That way you are C&T the correct 'gaiting' performance...... Just an idea - don't know if it will work or not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) Perhaps do some gaiting practice and C&T when the tail is in the right position? That way you are C&T the correct 'gaiting' performance...... Just an idea - don't know if it will work or not?? I thought along these lines too, LP ..... but given tail carriage is generally the result of an involuntary emotional (rather than a voluntary conscious) state, I would be thinking the dog is more likely to simply pair the "reward" for the gaiting than for the tail carriage. Hardly any harm to try though, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on its success. Just my thoughts. ETA: Except I wonder that, if the tail was down, the gaiting might not be quite what is preferred - and the reward might be perceived by the dog for minimalised gaiting without any thought of tail carriage. Edited June 18, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Perhaps do some gaiting practice and C&T when the tail is in the right position? That way you are C&T the correct 'gaiting' performance...... Just an idea - don't know if it will work or not?? I thought along these lines too, LP ..... but given tail carriage is generally the result of an involuntary emotional (rather than a voluntary conscious) state, I would be thinking the dog is more likely to simply pair the "reward" for the gaiting than for the tail carriage. Hardly any harm to try though, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on its success. Just my thoughts. True - I did think of that - but thought it was a good idea to get out there anyway - lol - I am sure tails are the hardest part of a dogs 'body' to 'train' coz as you say - it is linked directly to emotion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Probably why the normal method for getting the tail down works, flicking the tail. It wouldn't really reach the dog to hold its tail down, it would just make it less happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Thanks guys for answering my question! LP- she holds it perfect on the stack and probably about 25% of the time she holds it right when gaiting. I also thought about c&t for correct gaiting when the tail is down but I don't think she will realise about the tail bit - that's why I was thinking of sessions purely targetting her tail - ie, get her excited, get the tail up and then c&t for when it comes down to normal position. The other problem with c&t for correct gait with tail down is that as soon as I click/praise, the tail comes back up again! Erny - that was my sort of thinking to re: whether she would connect the praise while gaiting to her tail or not. As for your query about the standard of gaiting when the tail is down compared to when its up, I think her gait is actually better when her tail is where it should be. When she's got it up she tends to be bouncing more than she should, although some of that I think is still due to excitement... JulesP - That is a method that some people do use and I personally would preffer not to use it, (a) because it makes the showing experience not a positive one and (b) it wrecks her gait. I have tried to smooth her tail down gently while gaiting but every time I lean in towards her she thinks I'm going to give her drop command and hits the deck! Not quite the effect that I was hoping for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Are you running too fast as well? Check your speed with what her tail is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Erny - that was my sort of thinking to re: whether she would connect the praise while gaiting to her tail or not. As for your query about the standard of gaiting when the tail is down compared to when its up, I think her gait is actually better when her tail is where it should be. When she's got it up she tends to be bouncing more than she should, although some of that I think is still due to excitement... Then that's not quite as difficult a problem. Work to reward with high value reward (eg food treat, assuming she's that way inclined) for the preferred/better gait (which by your account should come with the better tail carriage). Also be mindful of your own body language - do your best to appear as relaxed in the showring as you are elsewhere. Dogs are incredibly perceptive of very minute changes in our body language, as you'd be aware. These are the sorts of things they can pick up on that make a difference to their behaviours. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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